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new spheres or recharging? |
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jumep
 
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  Member No: #2125
Location: Banka |
I have bought original removal / installation tool from dealer, but when you are replacing spheres. 1. you need depressurize system (can be done using diagnostic or, you put the car to top position, jack front and then put car to normal position, it will fully depressurize front suspension (by the principle, it thinks car is still on high position and open lowering solenoids, while the car won't be lowering, it will fully depressurize it, if LDS start overflowing tank, that means there was too much LDS in system). 2. Then if you do not have any tool to loosen sphere, use hammer and chisel. Do not worry about harming old sphere. Then normally with bare hands unscrew it, clean around, change gasket and fit new sphere, which should be tightened to 27nm, enough is to use oil filter key (preferably Key Chain). |
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Dan595
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 Member No: #299
Location: Wiltshire |
"if LDS start overflowing tank, that means there was too much LDS in system" I'd like to understand more on this. Before changing spheres, I put my car into low position and there was no sign of LDS in the tank filler. I think that accepted practice is that the bottom of the 'cup' should have fluid on it. Mine was dry. So maybe some spheres are very low on pressure so the system 'holds' more LDS? But then the front spheres are new, I didn't de-pressurise the rear and I only replaced the stiffness sphere. I find that the 'hammer and chisel' method can be effective but whilst I don't worry about damaging the sphere, I do worry about damaging everything else in the vicinity of the sphere. |
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jumep
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Member No: #2125
Location: Banka |
Checking level of LDS it is required to depressurize system. Putting it only to low position won't depressurize it, it will only lower the car. If you do not have diagnostics you can make workaround, lower the car, measure height on places for jack, then find 4 pieces of wood which are 3cm larger than that height and lower car on them, then it will fully depressurize system and now check LDS and fill it to the middle of the cup (there is hole for it). After this when you put the car to normal position it will take much more time until it raises. My English is not too good, I think this may help as well - Click Here - If you are depressurizing system, or putting car on big jack (service, all wheels in air - like changing tires) - you must remove LDS cover, if not, you are risking damaging dampers. Yes, hammer and chisel method is only when nothing else is around, but trust me, you won't break anything. Sometimes there is no other way to put the sphere down even with original tool (happened few times). If sphere got any pressure, there won't be any LDS in it after you depressurize system (pressure will push all LDS from it). If the membrane is broken, LDS will stay in and when you dismantle it, it will start to leak out. |
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C6Dave
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    Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland |
Dan595 wrote ... I find that the 'hammer and chisel' method can be effective but whilst I don't worry about damaging the sphere, I do worry about damaging everything else in the vicinity of the sphere. And so you should, this is what I found on my DSuper after an accumulator sphere change..... (not by me)  |
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gmerry
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 Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Hammer and chisel is for the cowboys (get a decent sphere removal tool or make one yourself). Regards G |
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Dan595
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Member No: #299
Location: Wiltshire |
jumep wrote ... Checking level of LDS it is required to depressurize system. Putting it only to low position won't depressurize it, it will only lower the car. FAQ 235 on this site suggests that the easy way to check level is to lower the car and check the level against the bottom of the cup. I know official Citroen policy is to de-pressurise. I have Lexia anyway and have used it to de-pressurise before, I will do some comparisons. |
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gbl
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 Member No: #936
Location: Copenhagen |
jumep wrote ... For a long time now, I am trying to find out who is OEM producer of speheres. What I know IFHS, MONROE, SUPPLEX are the same inside as old spheres on this picture: - Click Here - you see IFHS sphere and this is OEM: - Click Here - OEM membrane is made from rubber, is soft a thin, IFHS (or aftermarket) is same as it was in XANTIA, BX, XM - old cars, is thick and hard OEM was build to last about 200k km (which we know may not be true, but still in C5 as far as I have tested them they on cars from 2001 - 400k km, cars from 2005+ it was about 250k km) Old speheres were build to last about 70k km, but you were able to refill them. On my C6, 1 year ago I have tested them (only front) and they got 30bar instead of 50bar and now are getting worse. I do not want to buy old speheres in new body which IFHS, SUPPLEX, MONROE is (all have been cutted to see) and was looking to buy them cheaper than from dealer - you can get half of price in aftermarket, which mean instead of changing only front 2, I can change rear too. I am not sure where to find out who is producing OEM, even if I wont be able to buy them directly - it will help a lot to know Thank you jumep, for the very interesting cutaway sphere photos. I would think the sphere OEM is still Citroën themselves. The PSA website for the Caen plant says this: --------- L'ELEMENT DE SUSPENSION HYDRAULIQUE Destinés aux véhicules haut de gamme des Citroën C5 et C6, l'élément de suspension hydraulique procure au véhicule un confort et un comportement routier inégalé. L'usine de Caen possède le potentiel de production nécessaire pour équiper 2300 véhicules par semaine. Cette compétence est un savoir-faire unique au Monde.  --------- I visited the original Citroën hydraulics plant in Asnières around 1993 when they had just started making the new 6+2 pump for the Xantia. I asked about the spheres, and they said the sphere manufacturing had been moved to Caen. Apparently that’s where it still is. jumep’s photo of the cutaway Citroën sphere shows why Citroën is using the designation “sphere multicouches”, meaning that the diaphragm has more than one layer. This improvement introduced from around 2000 greatly reduces the nitrogen diffusion and ensures a very long life of the Citroën grey “saucer” spheres. After 108000 kilometers and 8 years, the sphere pressures on my C6 had developed like this: 2 front spheres: From 50 bars to 40 bars 1 front regulator sphere: From 70 bars to 62 bars 4 rear spheres: From 40 bars to 38, 38, 32, and 32 bars With this outstanding performance, I would not for a moment consider buying anything but Citroën original spheres. Seeing jumep’s cutaway photos of the lookalike spheres confirms this, as well as the recent mention in another post on this site, that the sphere-shop.co.uk website claims the IFHS spheres are losing 17% pressure per year, purely due to time. No thanks!! On a C6 with AMVAR, all 7 spheres are physically identical since the spheres do not have any built-in shock absorber valves. Only the filling pressures varies. So if the timing is right, you can move some spheres around and reduce the number of new spheres to be purchased: For example, I bought two new front spheres, and then moved the two old front spheres (which had dropped to 40 bars) to the rear, replacing the two that had dropped to 32 bars. |
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Dan595
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Member No: #299
Location: Wiltshire |
The second link shows a Toyota AHC sphere. Do Toyota licence from Citroen? The system seems quite similar in many respects. |
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jumep
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Member No: #2125
Location: Banka |
yes, they use different fitting but principle is same I have somewhere photos of original spheres (but cannot find it now) and few broken ones, so I may cut them and make pictures again ok: I have found some pictures - Click Here - but still it is not that picture I was looking for |
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arconell3
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  Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar |
Before starting to suspect that your spheres may need changing, it is wise to check a number of other things that might be responsible for the less comfortable ride of your C6. 1. Tire pressure, too high or too low will cause a bumpy ride. 2. Check your tires to see if they are XL (Extra Load) or not. 2A. Adjust tire size and XL or non-XL in Diagbox correspondingly. (Note: use Diagbox, not Lexia) 3. Check all suspension bushes and swivel points, front and rear, too much wear will cause noises and often a harsh ride. Replace where needed. 4. Check and adjust ride height. Note that this is a high precision job which needs to be done twice and checked a third time. A few millimeters off will make a very noticeable difference. 5. Alignment. Once you have done all that and you are still not satisfied with the riding comfort, start suspecting your spheres. However in many if not in most cases you will find that after running these checks and corrections, your C6 feels like new. Also remember that in most cases checking sphere pressure will produce unreliable results. Temperature differences and non calibrated pressure gauges alone may cause huge discrepancies in measured values. Make sure that you know the standard deviation and the random error of the test equipment and correct the measured values accordingly. Another and often better way is to run comparison tests (always run multiple tests to correct for random error) between your spheres an a brand new and unsuspected factory sphere on the same test equipment. Regards, Robert |
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gmerry
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Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
GBL, very good point about moving spheres from front to rear duty (when the discharge pressure is correct). The front stresses are much higher so putting older spheres in semi-retirement on the rear, with new spheres on the front makes sense too. Given the quality and low pressure loss of the originals, this makes the recharging option even better sense as well. | ||
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abrli
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Member No: #1899
Location: London |
UPDATE: I now have had all 7 spheres replaced. In the end my French was completely useless so I went to Pleaides near Peterborough. The guy's very friendly and I stood and watched the entire process. The most difficult part is getting the old rusty spheres off, which involved multiple attempts with lots of WD-40 and hammer tapping on the seal. The rears were the trickiest to get into. As soon as they were removed they only need to be hand tightened with the new seal fitted. I also had LDS fluid changed and all in all it took 4 litres (I brought 5 litres with me). The whole process took around 90 minutes. When the spheres were changed it took some time (and some steering movements) to bleed the whole circuit and top up the LDS tank to the correct level once all the air has escaped. As I supplied all the parts, Pleaides charged me £100 + VAT, which in my opinion is very good value for money. All in all including spheres and LDS fluid total expenditure comes at just under £500. It's made a huge difference to the ride and the suspension is now as comfortable as ever. It's interesting that I learned many facts during the fitting, which hopefully answers some of the questions here. 1. C6 spheres do rattle, it doesn't necessarily mean it's broken or under pressured. 2. The guy mentioned IFHS spheres are very good from his experience. 3. Pleaides can recharge the new spheres by removing the rivet on the top, provided the membrane is okay. 4. I had all the original spheres tested after replacement. One of the front spheres had membrane problem, and the rest were all at around 10-15 psi BELOW the original (after 8 years and 80,000m). 5. Even a small drop in pressure such as 10-15 psi can make a noticeable change to the ride quality. 6. I'd recommend Pleaides strongly as they really are a sphere specialist and know what they're doing. The guys are all very nice and straight-talking in my opinion. And their prices are very reasonable. Hope this helps. If you have any questions please post here and I'll do my best to reply. |
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Jarecki
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  Member No: #2069
Location: Poznan |
Hi abrli! It is very useful explanation. However, some details caused my concern. 10-15psi it is very small difference - I think around 2% only! According to my experience and knowledge the old types of spheres has pressure tolerance between +75 up to -300psi below nominal. Are you sure about the units? was it bar maybe? Did you take some pictures of recharging process? Or the spheres inside-section view? Would you are so kind to share it? I'm very interested in. |
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abrli
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Member No: #1899
Location: London |
Jarecki wrote ... Hi abrli! It is very useful explanation. However, some details caused my concern. 10-15psi it is very small difference - I think around 2% only! According to my experience and knowledge the old types of spheres has pressure tolerance between +75 up to -300psi below nominal. Are you sure about the units? was it bar maybe? Did you take some pictures of recharging process? Or the spheres inside-section view? Would you are so kind to share it? I'm very interested in. Sorry.. got my unit wrong.. It was indeed BARs. I only had the old ones tested but not recharged as that'd be an additional £30 per sphere, but I saw their work bench behind the main work area with hydraulic press and nitrogen gas canisters. Apparently they also do spheres for Toyota Land Cruisers as well as some vintage Rolls Royce and Maserati. As for the original spheres, the 2 rear regulators are a bit rusty from the outside, but lost pressure wise it's no different to the rest. |
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jumep
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Member No: #2125
Location: Banka |
I have finally found the picture I was looking for: - Click Here - |
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