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Intermittent failure to start |
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Jodyone
 
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  Member No: #1240
Location: Cornwall |
My C6 has picked up an new problem: it occasionally fails to start. Ignition on, fine: then when I turn the key to the start position- nothing. No starter motor activity of any kind, no relays clicking, solenoid twitching... nothing at all. It only happens in a window of about half an hour after the car has been turned off. Short stops at petrol stations and shops are most vulnerable. Returning to the car after 40 mins or so, it so far has always started normally. When it works, the starter spins very fast and the engine starts quickly. Also, I've enacted various rituals to try to get the thing started: I've disconnected the battery to restart the BSI, moved the gearshift through all positions, rocked the car forward or backwards a little. Eventually, after 5 mins or so of this fiddling, it has always started- I've not had to leave it yet! Occurrences are getting closer together, however. I'm at a total loss as to where to begin. I don't know which -or any- of my interventions has done any good. Nothing shows up in Lexia (though I've not yet connected it during a failure). I assume there's no traditional starter motor relay in this car. I installed a new starter motor earlier this year, which has been working perfectly: in the absence of any better ideas, I'm inclined to retrace my steps (ugh) and see if a wire has come loose..?! Even when it starts normally, I have noticed the tiniest of delays between moving the key to start position, and the starter engaging (think, small fractions of a second). Enough to make me think the BSI might be doing something in that period- checking to see if certain conditions are satisfied, etc. If so, dose anybody know if/what is checked before starting is allowed? Shifter position, etc? I replaced the brake pedal switch (in the passenger footwell) a couple of years ago, could that be involved in any way? It seems to be working fine though. Any suggestions are gratefully received! I'm getting bored of pretending to check things in the boot in car parks, in case someone gives me the usual- "shouldn't have bought a Citroen, mate.." |
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Tjensen
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   Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
My XM V6 did exactly that (after 250 000km). Started when cold, started immedietely after stopping, but then it needed 5-15 minutes pause. Starter problem (relay ???), New starter: everything OK. Probably something like warm relay or stuck rotor...... The garage thought it was just the way a starter dies, nothing Citroen about it. But then it is our fate as Citroen drivers, even after 20 years and 200.000 km's we get the "Typical Citroen, fails all the time" comment, even from the Mercedes and Volvo and Landrover people that maintain their cars with fortunes. The good side of my story is that my wife was very emberassed by the starter failure and wanted a new car, which I accepted "If it is a C6" 
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Jodyone
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Member No: #1240
Location: Cornwall |
Thanks, it's a new starter though?! Is there a relay? I'd assumed it's all a bit fancier than that. | ||
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Tjensen
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Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
The C6 2,7 is actually known for early starter failure (bearings) A lot of information and stories in this site.Classical mechancical problems of wear. The 3,0 Hdi starter is different and hopefully better. | ||
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e3steve
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 Member No: #1163
Location: Warsash, Hants & Palma de Mallorca, Spain |
Jody's car's symptoms aren't, to my mind, indicative of a starter motor issue. Possibly the shift neutral switch? | ||
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Jodyone
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Member No: #1240
Location: Cornwall |
e3steve wrote ... Jody's car's symptoms aren't, to my mind, indicative of a starter motor issue. Possibly the shift neutral switch? That's my suspicion too- is that the same switch I referred to? The one that activates from the brake pedal via a plunger in the passenger footwell, and allows moving out of park? Or is it something else? |
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e3steve
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Member No: #1163
Location: Warsash, Hants & Palma de Mallorca, Spain |
The other way around, Jody. The brake pedal switch inhibits the moving of the shift out if Park. The shift neutral switch inhibits the starter when not in Park or Neutral. | ||
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Jodyone
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Member No: #1240
Location: Cornwall |
e3steve wrote ... The other way around, Jody. The brake pedal switch inhibits the moving of the shift out if Park. The shift neutral switch inhibits the starter when not in Park or Neutral. Ok, thanks Steve. I've got a good feeling about this one.. Any idea where it is..?! |
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e3steve
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Member No: #1163
Location: Warsash, Hants & Palma de Mallorca, Spain |
Jodyone wrote ... It's in the gearbox housing (I'll look for a location); part number 255465A - Click Here - which isn't referred to in the layout drawing!
e3steve wrote ... The other way around, Jody. The brake pedal switch inhibits the moving of the shift out if Park. The shift neutral switch inhibits the starter when not in Park or Neutral. Ok, thanks Steve. I've got a good feeling about this one.. Any idea where it is..?! |
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Jodyone
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Member No: #1240
Location: Cornwall |
Ayiyi, good sleuthing Steve... I was hoping it'd be near the shifter- no such luck! Probably on the most inaccessible side of the gearbox housing... I'll do some searching. | ||
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Jodyone
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Member No: #1240
Location: Cornwall |
Update. I think it isn't the shift neutral switch..! I managed to coax it (the "problem") to happen, by driving fairly hard for 20 minutes, stopping in a car park for 5, and then trying to start it. Nothing. This time I had Lexia with me however, to see if anything showed. Irritatingly, no errors were showing (other than the usuals). No gearbox errors. However, delving into the gearbox menus, I found a page which monitors the various variables in real time- including the shift neutral switch. Which, apparently is working perfectly, as is the shift lock (see pics):   This time, I decided to do nothing but wait. Eventually, after about 5-10 minutes, the car started fine. The longest has been about 20 minutes, during which time I was trying everything I could think of (all to nowt, I think- it's just time). It seems like something is cooling down, just enough to permit starting. In the absence of any better ideas, I'm going to strip the starter out again today, bench test it, and put everything back together. A horrible job but I need to verify my own work: I can visualise some cable or whatever not quite making good contact until heat flexes it, etc... or some plug in the fusebox array not quite seated. I know. Desperate. |
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Tjensen
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Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
The "R" report on the gear lever makes it right to block starting. Probably I misunderstand something, but is it the report from the lever to the system that is wrong (lever actually in Park, but Reporting Reverse ??) | ||
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Jodyone
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Member No: #1240
Location: Cornwall |
SOLVED! Tjensen- sorry, I should have explained the pics more: in the second image, the shifter is in Reverse- I've just shown it for context, to show that the neutral safety switch works correctly, preventing starting in anything other than Park or Neutral. So- I took the starter motor out again. And as I did so, the lead to the solenoid came off in my hand... including the nut and bolt that attaches it, and a twisted bit of metal. It had only been attached, I guess, by a tiny piece of metal, and as the temperature went up it couldn't transmit enough power to engage the solenoid (conductivity reduces with temperature, right? or something..?!?). My guess at what happened: I overtightened the nut when I installed the starter months back, and twisted the mounting hardware mostly off (It's all done blind, with your hands wedged around the back of the starter, for those who haven't done the job!). Idiotic, but an easy mistake to make, and I'm just relieved to have found the problem. Of course, this discovery left me with a damaged starter motor... so once I got it out (more battered hands..), I carefully cut away some of the surrounding plastic (bakelite?) with a dremel, to expose the stub of electrode, to which I soldered a length of heavy gauge cable, then to reattach to the relevant cable further into the engine bay. No pictures I'm afraid, I didn't think. Put it all back together (ow ow ow [%*^#@!] ow, I really hate this job), and- so far- all is fine! Hard to be completely sure about an intermittent problem, but I'd be very surprised if it recurred now. |
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e3steve
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Member No: #1163
Location: Warsash, Hants & Palma de Mallorca, Spain |
Jodyone wrote ... You're a genius among mortals, Jody! Of course, had your opening gambit included the line <I had the starter motor out a while back> we'd all have pointed the finger and, in unison, yelled "You've screwed up" (yes: pun!)...SOLVED! Tjensen- sorry, I should have explained the pics more: in the second image, the shifter is in Reverse- I've just shown it for context, to show that the neutral safety switch works correctly, preventing starting in anything other than Park or Neutral. So- I took the starter motor out again. And as I did so, the lead to the solenoid came off in my hand... including the nut and bolt that attaches it, and a twisted bit of metal. It had only been attached, I guess, by a tiny piece of metal, and as the temperature went up it couldn't transmit enough power to engage the solenoid (conductivity reduces with temperature, right? or something..?!?). My guess at what happened: I overtightened the nut when I installed the starter months back, and twisted the mounting hardware mostly off (It's all done blind, with your hands wedged around the back of the starter, for those who haven't done the job!). Idiotic, but an easy mistake to make, and I'm just relieved to have found the problem. Of course, this discovery left me with a damaged starter motor... so once I got it out (more battered hands..), I carefully cut away some of the surrounding plastic (bakelite?) with a dremel, to expose the stub of electrode, to which I soldered a length of heavy gauge cable, then to reattach to the relevant cable further into the engine bay. No pictures I'm afraid, I didn't think. Put it all back together (ow ow ow [%*^#@!] ow, I really hate this job), and- so far- all is fine! Hard to be completely sure about an intermittent problem, but I'd be very surprised if it recurred now. Nice one! Bar-stered job though, ain't it?! I, like you, have been in there twice; the first time to 'repair' the motor pinion's end bush, the second to replace the motor with the little beauty from Premier Factors! - Click Here - |
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