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Help! Loss of oil! |
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Candide
 
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   Member No: #3844
Location: Scotland |
Having driven around all day I parked up at home and nothing was out of the ordinary. A couple of hours later I used the car to go and pick up some food and the "Oil pressure too low" warning came on for the first time. I noticed that it came on while cornering which is usually a sign of low oil level but the car was recently in for an oil change and some other bits and bobs. I took it very easy until I got to the takeaway place and on returning to the car I noticed spots of oil behind me. I nursed the car back home and noticed that I have left a trail of oil on the road leading to the house. When parked up it seems to be leaking out the OSF, driver's side but the car is on a slight slope that way when it is parked. Looking underneath the car I can see oil on the underside but I cannot see where it's coming from. The leak is such that when the car is moving the oil is being spread on the underside and tiny specks are being thrown up onto the rear bumper and number plate. Following a chat with a concerned neighbour, I'm hoping that this is nothing more than a pipe or hose or a seal that's an easy fix but I thought I would ask on here to see if this sounded familiar to anyone and maybe the same thing has happened? In the interests of full disclosure, I did "welly it" today a couple of times, taking the engine to quite high revs before the 'box changed gear. I don't always drive like that but just fancied a wee burst of speed. Maybe this has caused the issue? The car is an '07 which just clocked 190000 miles today! Regularly serviced and usually very reliable. If anyone has any ideas or helpful suggestions they will be very gratefully received. The irony here is that I had been seriously pondering the 3.0hdi that was for sale and has now been removed from sale! I think the universe may be telling me something! |
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MGmike
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   Member No: #3151
Location: South Queensferry |
C6's don't normally suffer from oil leaks but then, not many have done the mileage yours has. You really need to get a good look underneath for the source but if it is from the OSF, the only sources I can think of at that end are the crank and cam seals but it sounds worse than I'd expect from either of these. I'm guessing a turbo return pipe has come dislodged during your Italian tune-up   If you want to risk a run over to my place we can get it on a ramp tomorrow? |
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onthecut
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 Member No: #2793
Location: West Mids |
Don't forget the absolute basics --- is the sump plug correctly tightened / oil filter housing correctly seated ? Particularly pertinent if it's recently had an oil change. Mike. |
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Candide
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Member No: #3844
Location: Scotland |
Many thanks for the offer Mike, I really appreciate that but I will not be driving it anywhere yet. I had another look at the car and put in 2 litres of oil which just barely showed on the bottom of the dipstick. The "oil ok" message showed up so I took the chance and started her up. She started fine and sounded okay and I managed to turn the car round so that it faces the right way for the tow truck. When I switched off and looked under the car I saw 3 long drips of oil coming from the back of the drip tray. Regarding the other Mike's comment - which makes 3 of us, I'm one too! - you have touched a nerve there! The garage I use have a long history with Citroën but recently, the car went in for, what I thought were just a few things, oil change, ABS sensor, gearbox fluid change, and to investigate a "clunk" from the OSF area. This clunk turned out to be the steering rack which, if it's original, has lasted 190,000 miles so I thought that was fair enough. On picking the car up the first time, by the time I got home, the rear NSR caliper was binding as was the OSF. There had been a broken ABS sensor that I had left for too long and this knocks out the handbrake (genius move Citroën!) and the old caliper had seized up through lack of use so the front caliper also jammed I think because of the dual circuit setup, as the pressure was not being released. So I took it back in, they fitted a new caliper and all was well...until I noticed that my turning circle was different left to right! I phoned them again and was due to take it back in last Friday when this disaster occurred on Thursday! To say I've lost faith in this garage is an understatement and I think I will now be looking for somewhere else after they properly fix the steering rack. So when you suggested that this may have been caused by an incorrectly fitted sump plug or filter it is ringing alarm bells. The question is, if this is really the cause will they be honest about it? This garage does look after several other C6s from in and around Glasgow but I haven't met any of the owners to compare notes on the garage. I have absolutely no facility to have a look at the car so I need to rely on others. Today I hope to arrange a breakdown truck to take the car to the garage and I'm really hoping that it is something simple because the bill for the steering rack and other bits was quite hefty. Of course they should sort the rack free of charge. I'm also hoping that the garage will be completely honest because, the more I think about this, the more I think you may be right as the car is generally very healthy for its age and, whilst a breakdown, particularly a leak, can happen any time, there usually is some pre-warning, however small, whether that be in the form of oil drips, or running too hot, etc. For a car to suddenly start throwing oil to this extent, points to either poor practice over the oil change or an actual fault has developed. If I didn't love this car so much it would have gone some time ago, I think these are only really financially viable if you can do the majority of the work and servicing yourself. Having said that, money ain't everything and the enjoyment I get from driving it makes it all worthwhile. If only I could find a garage that I can trust and who will respect the quirks of such a car. The previously mentioned neighbour gave me details of a garage which is much more local to me and seemingly have a good reputation so when I get the car back I'll go down and have a look. Thanks again for all your help and apologies for the long ramble! |
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Candide
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Member No: #3844
Location: Scotland |
UPDATE: Well, I may have jumped the gun in bad-mouthing this garage as it seems to be a case of genuine miscommunication. They actually had looked at the car despite telling me on the phone they hadn’t! I had a good chat with them, cleared the air and they promised to look at the steering issue as soon as the car is driving. The reality is that they would not have been able to look at the car until late July and the place I have booked it into is around the same time, early August and I’m actually keen to hear a fresh opinion about the engine, for reasons detailed below. The upside of all this is that I now know the reason for my oil loss - front crankcase seal - which now warrants some more investigation because this is the 3rd one since 2020! One was fitted in Feb ’20 - at 156,934 miles - another one in Mar ’22 - at 175,025 miles - and now a third - at 190,000 miles - in as many years. I couldn’t believe it when they checked their records and told me this and now I’ve checked mine I can see it too. So, I’m looking for some solutions here and possible reasons why I am going through these things at a rate of about one year each! I am not a particularly exuberant driver, despite what I said earlier on this post, these bursts of speed are occasional, usually just to give the car a “good blast” every once in a while. I have some ideas and would appreciate hearing what other people think of them: 1. Due to the age of the engine - 190,000 miles - and a lifetime of heating/cooling/heating/cooling, could it be that tolerances have now been reached and breached? The day the oil loss happened was very warm, the car had been in use all day, it never quite cooled down then I used it at night, when the oil loss was spotted. 2. Could the seal be fitted incorrectly? Looking at the tech docs for this procedure, the only thing I noted was that it advises NOT to lubricate the exterior of the seal. Maybe they did and maybe this is the issue? 3. Could the quality of the part be the issue? Having said that, the garage also run a parts business and I have never seen any part fitted before that was not OEM. 4. Speaking with the foreman on the phone, he admitted to being baffled as to why this keeps happening and expressed that he had no idea “what was driving it” so is there some associated part or mechanism that should be looked at? He also suggested that the oil pressure may be too high so what could cause that? 5. Is this just a tired engine, or a faulty engine? If no other C6 has had this issue then surely that points to something unique to my car or engine setup? 6. Could the engine be running too hot which, along with some of the above, i.e. tolerances etc., means that the crank seal loosens? But then, wouldn’t that show in the temp gauge, which always sits at the normal level? The car drives exceptionally well with no other signs of anything being wrong but then it has not been hooked up to Lexia yet. Has anyone else had this issue? Maybe it’s the combination of extreme heat and pressure, for whatever reason, but for both to become so extreme that I’m using up crank seals at the average rate of one a year then surely that points to something else being the issue? I hope someone can help me with this because it’s not exactly comforting knowing that something in your engine doesn’t like being there and will remove itself every so often with very little warning, particularly when it’s oil related and results in a completely undriveable car. |
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onthecut
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Member No: #2793
Location: West Mids |
I've thought on numerous previous occasions that the relationship between the people who write the workshop manual and those who actually get their hands dirty is tenuous at best and the instructions for the timing end seal are just another classic example. I've done mine once, shortly after I had the car, when I fitted the later oil pump and I can't recall now whether it was an old fashioned lip seal or a Teflon type.I believe it's an important distinction, as my understanding is that you would lubricate a nitrile seal, but apply no oil to a Teflon type. The other thing I know from fairly recent experience on another car is that with a Teflon type, there are no second goes at fitting it. You really need to have exactly the right tool in order to get the sealing surface spot on, first go. Aside from incorrect fitting, a poor seal land on the crank would lead to premature failure, or perhaps if for some reason dust or detritus was collecting behind the timing belt cover and finding its way down behind the belt sprocket. Might be worth asking if they have definitely verified it is the seal and not simply appearing around the location. I would just check there were no loose sump bolts and also no pinhole in the sump. On mine, had I not taken some preventive measures I reckon the sump would have holed by now from external corrosion. Mike. |
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Candide
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Member No: #3844
Location: Scotland |
When you say "timing belt cover", when I look down on that side of the engine I can see the belts. Does this mean the cover is missing? As far as I recall, it was always like that but maybe it's been missing for some time. The garage it's booked into know this engine well so I'll ask them when I see them too. | ||
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onthecut
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Member No: #2793
Location: West Mids |
The auxiliary belt that drives the alternator etc.is visible. If you can see the cam belt (which has square-ish section teeth on its underside), then you are definitely missing a cover(s). Mike. |
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MGmike
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Member No: #3151
Location: South Queensferry |
I don't believe a blown crank seal would result in the amount of oil loss you indicated earlier but I'm open to being convinced! I'm also not aware of any others with similar problems. If it is the crank seal, there are only a few reasons for it failing so catastrophically 1, incorrectly fitted - IIRC it's a double lip seal and you need to be very careful not to damage the inner lip when fitting 2, crank journal damage - as "onthecut" mentioned the running contact area may be worn or damaged during previous repairs 3, Oil pump failure - I might be leaning towards this given the high mileage done. The oil pump is mounted on the front of the engine with the crank passing through it and, whilst it's a low pressure (typically 1.2 Bar) high volume unit, if it is failing internally it's not inconceivable that it's providing a volume of oil to overcome the seal. If the rest of the car is in good condition I would be tempted to replace the engine with a lower mileage unit (I have one available if you're looking  ) |
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Candide
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Member No: #3844
Location: Scotland |
Apologies for the delay in responding but I have been on such a roller coaster with my car that it’s almost unbelievable. I decided to phone the garage the day before it was due in - on the 2nd August - just to check my appointment was still open and was told that it was booked in to look at the steering rack issue only! They hadn't allocated any more time than was required to check the steering rack so I re-booked the car in for the 21st August to look at the crank oil seal. The garage called yesterday telling me that they are not even going to look at the car as they believe it’s beyond their scope and it really needs a complete rebuild. According to someone who knows these engines well, they claim that the crankshaft has some “end float” and the problem will be with the bearings. He suggested that I could fit a new oil pump and seal and see how it goes but I don’t want to chance this breaking down again. I have seen several posts and articles regarding the crank on these engines and the fact that it does seem to be a weak spot. Whilst I’m grateful that he phoned in time it means that I am now back to square one! My car has been off the road for over 6 weeks now, so long that I bought myself an X reg Mercedes-Benz CLK320 to run around in the meantime! Sacrilege, I know, but I need something to get around and I’m a lunatic! Otherwise I would have bought a nice wee Hyundai or Kia! But I wanted something that I can absolutely rely on until the C6 is fixed and you can’t get much more reliable than an old-school Merc! But now I’m left in a quandary, do I continue trying to get this engine rebuilt or simply look for another engine? Thanks MGMike for the offer and I may yet take you up on it. Or do I just bite the bullet here and sell my C6 as it is? I don’t yet know what I’m going to do but I can’t continue to leave my car parked up much longer, apart from anything else, it now seems to be letting in water on the nearside, probably related to the rear window issue that caused the water ingress on the other side, which has been documented on this forum. Anyway, I need to make up my mind as my insurance runs out soon. My options are: 1. Fit new/used good engine. 2. Get current engine rebuilt. 3. Sell and buy another C6. Of course, ultimately it’s my decision but before making it, I’m going to speak to some engine specialists nearby to get an idea of costs involved. I’m also going to follow up on MGMike’s offer - if it’s still available - and see how that could work out and I’m also going to look online to see what’s on the market at the moment. Maybe this is the time to get that 3.0Hdi that I’ve long craved? Whatever happens, I thank you all for the advice you’ve given me so far and I’ll be sure to post here when I’ve made up my mind what to do. If I do decide to sell, I would rather this car went to someone who appreciates the work that has already gone into it whilst also forgiving and accepting the car’s current faults. Not just the engine problem, but the water ingress at the rear, which I am sure is being caused by the failed bonding on the rear window. My insurance will not entertain the idea of paying for a replacement but someone else’s insurers might. I would appreciate any advice on this, particularly if you have a rough idea of what an engine rebuild or swap might cost? Whatever the outcome, it has already been off the road for over 6 weeks and I now need to bring the matter to its conclusion, one way or another. |
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Hattershaun
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 Member No: #320
Location: Bedfordshire, UK |
If you do fancy another C6, I have two available. Both 2.7HDi Exclusive; silver or red in colour, with black leather. 85 &114k miles. Both would come fully sorted by B.L.Autos. Red one needs a few jobs before it's ready. I'm thinking £4k & £5k price wise. |
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MGmike
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Member No: #3151
Location: South Queensferry |
Offer still stands. I can supply and fit a replacement engine with approx. 95k for £2k. I think you'll be looking at £3k+ for a reconditioned one and that's just for a mild refresh! A fully reconditioned one will be £4k+. There are plenty of videos on YouTube from LRtime taking you through what's involved in a full reconditioning. Like Hattershaun, I also have a few cars I could be tempted to part with! One dark Grey/cream and two Red/Black. Grey is a Cat N repaired with 70k miles. One Red/black has 116k and the other 145k. Grey will be available at £3k once I've done the timing belt. Both Red's are £4k but I might negotiate on the higher milage one. I also have a Blue/cream one but that won't be ready for sale until much later in the year. I would be very keen to get my hands on your engine just to take it apart to see exactly what is wrong with it because I'm not convinced by your garages statements. |
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cruiserphil
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  Member No: #38
Location: Celbridge |
Hello MGmike, Nice member support there Mike! Keep it going!! Best regards, Phil C. |
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onthecut
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Member No: #2793
Location: West Mids |
I thought it was the early 3.0 cranks that were iffy ? Just on a general note, it's always worth bearing in mind that we PSA bods are very much the minority users of these engines and it's often worth a look on Jaguar / Land Rover forums to see if there is any extra or useful information to be acquired. One thing I have found is that JLR seem more inclined to offer repair kits for some things, where to be useful. Citroen say a new assembly is required. Bear in mind of course that the engines aren't identical, but there's certainly enough commonality. Mike. |
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Candide
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Member No: #3844
Location: Scotland |
Many thanks again for the offers - Hattershaun and MGMike - it has now given me more options. I think it makes sense in the first instance to contact MGMike as he is closer to me so I will send him a DM. I'll update this when I have some more news. |
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