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The piloted alternator in the 3.0 and its problems

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Tjensen   
Tue Sep 05 2017, 12:13pm
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
With a new alternator at 130 000 km I wonder what went wrong with the old one. The 3.0 Version have just an ordinary "freewheel", no complicated clutch like the 2.7 engine. The problem was mechanical. With engine noise , then clacking and metal debris before it died and made the aux belt jump. Car withput cooling, steering servo and charging, so on a flatbed to the garage where it is standing, waiting for ever more parts that do not arrive. But what happened, and can I do something to make the next alternator live longer ? The "piloted" logic make the alternator just spin freely most of the time (12,7 V) and it clicks in when needed (14V).
e3steve   
Tue Sep 05 2017, 12:22pm
Joined: Jan 21 2013
Member No: #1163
Location: Warsash, Hants & Palma de Mallorca, Spain
What, like an aircon-compressor-type electromagnetic clutch, do you mean?
Tjensen   
Tue Sep 05 2017, 06:33pm
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
No, the alternator is electroncally guided so that it is only in use when needed or when engine/car is braking. I actually tested it. The clutch that usually is the failing part on the 2,7 is replaced by a standard freewheel pulley. Or have I misunderstood something ?
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 e3steve (05 September 2017)
AndreSMCXXMC6   
Thu Sep 07 2017, 01:57pm
Joined: Sep 09 2011
Member No: #615
Location: Groesbeek
The alternator and the pulley are actually the same for the 2.7 and 3.0 l diesel.
1 User said Thank You to AndreSMCXXMC6 for this Post :
 e3steve (07 September 2017)
Hattershaun   
Thu Sep 07 2017, 05:47pm
Joined: Dec 19 2010
Member No: #320
Location: Bedfordshire
AndreSMCXXMC6 wrote ...

The alternator and the pulley are actually the same for the 2.7 and 3.0 l diesel.


Citroen Service shows different part numbers for alternators for 2.7HDi & 3.0HDi.
One's a Valeo, the other's a Bosch (which may be irrelevant).
The basic alternator & pulley may be the same, however, I think the 3.0HDi has a different spacer between the alternator & pulley, to ensure the drive belt is correctly aligned.
1 User said Thank You to Hattershaun for this Post :
 e3steve (07 September 2017)
Tjensen   
Fri Sep 08 2017, 09:26am
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
There are important differences; The 2,7 has a 180 A alternator (Citroen no 5705 CJ, the 3,0 has a 240 A (Valeo 440207, Citroen 5705 KS)that is adapted to the "piloted" technology. And then there is the "clutch" that fails early on the 2,7. The 3,0 has a different part number (Valeo FG 23, no 599057) also in this area, called a freewheel pulley.

I thought (hoped !) that this was a better and more robust solution, but it might be "same [%*^#@!]". The piloted logic is very elegant for energy saving, but will make the alternator click in and out with some strain on the system (?).

I (and my garage) did not take the warning sounds important enough and the belt skipped. After one month the car is still not back on the road, (main problem lacking delivery of parts). So: Is there something that can be done to reduce the problem (a better battery ?)
2 User said Thank You to Tjensen for this Post :
 e3steve (08 September 2017) , Hattershaun (08 September 2017)
C6Dave   
Fri Sep 08 2017, 09:31am

Joined: Oct 01 2009
Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland
Tjensen wrote ...

The piloted logic is very elegant for energy saving, but will make the alternator click in and out with some strain on the system (?).


Dropping off load when not required helps to reduce engine load and ergo emissions which is part of the reason the 3.0 HDi is in a lower VED band in the UK.
Website
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 e3steve (08 September 2017)
Tjensen   
Thu Sep 14 2017, 09:08am
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
And now the car is back on the road, smoother than ever. The freewheel pulley and the alternator shaft destroyed (tried to include picture). Should have taken strange sounds warnings more seriously. And new water pump, aux belt, tensioners, timing belt, inlet tank, suspension spheres, steering flexible pressure main pipe, hydractive pressure sensor etc etc.

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 e3steve (15 September 2017) , 321dave (15 November 2017)
Tjensen   
Wed Nov 15 2017, 08:41am
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
As suspected the old alternator was in good working order, it was the pulley. So I want to repair it with a new pulley (too good to throw away). But how to get it, and from where??? I have not been able to find a part number for the pulley, not even in Valeos catalogue. It looks quite standard (58,7 mm). Can someone help with a part number or a source to try ?
cruiserphil   
Wed Nov 15 2017, 12:01pm

Joined: Jan 24 2010
Member No: #38
Location: Celbridge
Tjensen,

I had hoped to post on this at some point with photos as I had to replace the pulley on our 3.0HDi.

The pulley for the 3.0HDi alternator cannot be got as a spare part - I certainly could not find it after exhaustive searching. The solution - you fit a pulley for the 2.7 with a 3mm thick spacer with M16 centre inserted behind the pulley. The pulley ribbed belt pitch and diameter is correct it is just not as deep in dimension as the original and needs the spacer for alignment and preventing interference with the alternator casing.

It was thanks to Hattershaun for the heads up on this solution when I was confronted with the problem.

I promise to post photos later!

Best regards,

Phil C.
2 User said Thank You to cruiserphil for this Post :
 C6Dave (15 November 2017) , Hattershaun (16 November 2017)
cruiserphil   
Wed Nov 15 2017, 06:39pm

Joined: Jan 24 2010
Member No: #38
Location: Celbridge
As promised, some photos:

The lower pulley is the OEM pulley fitted to the Valeo alternator on the 3.0HDi. The upper pulley is the pulley for the 2.7HDi. Beside it is the spacer/shim that requires to be fitted behind the 2.7 pulley on the Valeo alternator shaft to align it correctly with the auxiliary belt.

The spacer/shim thickness requirement was carefully measured by comparing the difference in the rear of the two pulleys with the belt grooves aligned and found to be 3mm. In addition the bore was made to allow a snug fit to the alternator shaft to keep it concentric with the shaft centre (basically avoiding a loose/sloppy fit).

The remaining dimensions are identical betwen the two pulleys. As I said, I exhausted all avenues on the web in finding any reference to the 3.0HDi alternator pulley. My understanding from Hattershaun is that what you see is the solution - otherwise you replace the whole alternator. I can assure you this solution works perfectly.





Hope this helps,

Best regards,

Phil C.
5 User said Thank You to cruiserphil for this Post :
 C6Dave (15 November 2017) , Tjensen (16 November 2017) , 321dave (16 November 2017) , Hattershaun (16 November 2017) , e3steve (13 February 2019)
Tjensen   
Thu Nov 16 2017, 12:13am
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
Thanks ! Will try. And I also got the feeling the right pulley was not in the Valeo system (but it must be somewhere .....)
1 User said Thank You to Tjensen for this Post :
 cruiserphil (16 November 2017)
e3steve   
Thu Nov 16 2017, 07:27pm
Joined: Jan 21 2013
Member No: #1163
Location: Warsash, Hants & Palma de Mallorca, Spain
Do Litens not market one for this alt?
cruiserphil   
Thu Nov 16 2017, 09:01pm

Joined: Jan 24 2010
Member No: #38
Location: Celbridge
It appears not E3.

The original is Litens I presume as it's made in Canada but the part number stamped on it I cannot match! The 2.7 pulley with spacer is as good a fix!

Best regards,

Phil C.
1 User said Thank You to cruiserphil for this Post :
 e3steve (13 February 2019)
Paulius   
Sun Jun 23 2019, 06:41pm
Joined: Aug 14 2014
Member No: #1821
Location: Vilnius
Tjensen wrote ...

And now the car is back on the road, smoother than ever. The freewheel pulley and the alternator shaft destroyed (tried to include picture). Should have taken strange sounds warnings more seriously. And new water pump, aux belt, tensioners, timing belt, inlet tank, suspension spheres, steering flexible pressure main pipe, hydractive pressure sensor etc etc.




Tjensen, why did you change the hydractive pressure sensor - was there a fault or related error? And what is the inlet tank?

Also, what happened with the steering flexible pressure main pipe? A leak? I just refurbished mine in some hydraulics service (where they fix tractors' hydraulic lines), but now I have strange vibrations when turning the steering wheel.

Thanks
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