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When to change the oil in the C6 auto gearbox? |
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Chris Burmajster
 
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   Member No: #81
Location: South East |
Having had Citroens for many years, I have suffered from autobox problems in the past. Back in the days when I used to do my own servicing, I changed the autobox oil at the same time as the engine oil. Some might say that that's overkill, but once I started doing that I never had any more problems with the box. Now with my 'sealed for life' C6 autobox, I'm wondering whether to do something similar. My car now has 24K on the clock and I'm doing 300 miles a week. I've already decided to have the engine oil replaced every 10K instead of every 20K and I'm wondering whether I should have the gearbox oil changed as well. What do others think? |
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nickyg
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  Member No: #100
Location: Tyrone |
Have thought of this too, but I believe the AM6 box has been pretty well proven and any intervention may be counterproductive without access to lots of monies and a dealership setup!! | ||
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michaelb
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  Member No: #14
Location: London |
This was discussed to death on the Alfa forum; my previous Alfa 166 having a Citroën sealed-for-life auto box. The considered opinion there was you are likely to do harm, potentially introducing contaminants and never getting the level correct again as criteria for setting the correct level are very complicated. On the engine oil, my brother who is an aircraft engineer and knows a bit about duty cycles, reckons all of this two-year or 20,000 miles stuff manufacturers are coming out with these days is pure marketing baloney. In every other application of diesel engines they are serviced by hours of use. He reckons in lieu of the hours-of-service information all diesels should have their oil and filters changed every 6,000 miles. I'm not sure I'm that pessimistic but I will certainly have mine done annually. |
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verycleverman
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Member No: #65
Location: Northumberland |
michaelb wrote ... On the engine oil, my brother who is an aircraft engineer and knows a bit about duty cycles, reckons all of this two-year or 20,000 miles stuff manufacturers are coming out with these days is pure marketing baloney. In every other application of diesel engines they are serviced by hours of use. He reckons in lieu of the hours-of-service information all diesels should have their oil and filters changed every 6,000 miles. I'm not so sure it's all baloney. I would guess that your brother is an 'old school' aircraft engineer and is basing his opinion on the old mineral detergent oils. There is no doubt that mineral oil needs to be changed at frequent intervals but the same is not true of modern synthetic oils. I will confess to being a little out of touch with modern procedures, having been 'off the tools' for some 17 years now, but I think I am correct in saying that there are no viable aircraft diesel engines. Furthermore, the only time gas turbine engine oil is changed is at engine overhaul and that can equate to many millions of miles. Simply put, the manufacturer knows best. The service intervals reflect changing technology, advances in lubricants and the accumulation of experience. No manufacturer is going to risk sanction by consumer protection agencies and substantial damages purely in the interests of a marketing gimmick. The only winners when it comes to oil change paranoia are the oil companies. Pete. |
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C6Dave
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  Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland |
The auto gearbox I will leave alone as has been said, it can cause too many complications. The engine oil, well I will follow Citroen's own 'Severe Operating Conditions' guidance - Click Here - as my car is doing less than 12k annually so it's an annual oil change for me. |
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Chris Burmajster
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Member No: #81
Location: South East |
Thanks, everybody, for your replies. I must say, it goes against the grain for me to leave old oil in, but it's your experiences that are valuable, so I'll save time & money and leave well alone. One question though: is it really 'for life'? Will there not come a point when the car is 20 years old and has done 100,000 miles when changing the oil is recommended? | ||
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gmerry
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 Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Hi, my two pennys's worth. Oil in a diesel engine with EGR is subject to very high soot loadings. The very capable modern engine oils with the best additives still have to cope with this. The performance test specifications allow for a certain degree of contamination and wear of all the main engine components which becomes more severe with the number of hours of service. In the end, it doesn't matter how good the base stock is (ie what molecules are being used) because the soot loadings will over-whelm the ability of the oil to suspend the soot and keep viscosity in grade. I.e going from type III to type IV base stocks is probably a waste of time for EGR equipped diesels. For the autobox, the technology still relies on band brakes which require very precise levels of friction (again from additives) and produce wear particles. In the long run, the oil will degrade. Visit any auto-transmission overhaul shop and see even modern boxes with degraded fluid to see what I mean. Where the appropriate intervention mileage is I guess a big question. 200,000 miles of gentle usage, ie no hot climate, no towing, no sustained high speeds (> 110mph). 50,000 miles with heavy duty usage? |
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michaelb
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Member No: #14
Location: London |
verycleverman wrote ... No manufacturer is going to risk sanction by consumer protection agencies and substantial damages purely in the interests of a marketing gimmick. The only winners when it comes to oil change paranoia are the oil companies. Pete, you are right, working on Boeings and Airbuses he has no experience of maintaining diesels but I do value his input on all things mechanical - being a mere pen-pusher myself. I'm not sure about your belief in the manufacturers' integrity above. The current generation Alfas', and I suspect many other manufacturers', achilles heel is their timing belts. The service manuals state 72,000 miles or five years. When belts started popping all over the place at less mileage it caused a plethora of conflicting advice. I think Alfa UK now say 48,000 miles or four years. Some indie specialist swear by 36,000 miles or three years - quite a change from the marketing spiel of 72,000. Alfa seem to have successfully shrugged their shoulders if you've been unfortunate to suffer breakage outside of warranty. There is anecdotal evidence of some customers forcing Alfa to provide parts FOC but these stories seem to be rare. Basically they've washed their hands of it. I would hate to think that the two years or 20,000 mile oil change has been brought about with the same contempt for the customer. It looks great on the sales brochure and if we have to rebuild a few engines in five years time we get to sell some parts and it will give our dealers a revenue stream! |
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robin-hood
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Member No: #377
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Hi, only to put my opinion, I changed my Auto Gearbox oil as I encountered very small problems with my gearbox like light shudder when downshift sometimes, when cold, or quite rough upshift, compared to normal situation, that's to say, still very smooth. After 53000 kms smooth city driving then I asked for gearbox oil change to a specialized dealer, with correct oil (JWS3309). Old oil was very dark, almost black ! Now it's very very smooth in all situations, even cold. My opinion is : an oil, even the latest ones, don't keep their properties over years. It tends to wear after time, and it's goooood to change oil every 30K kms...You will only change 3 or 4 of the 7 liters as you can't change the converter oil, so it mixes with new oil, but even doing that improves largely gearbox behavior. It was my experience. Robin |
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bdeithrick
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Member No: #70
Location: Greystones |
robin-hood wrote ... Hi, only to put my opinion, I changed my Auto Gearbox oil as I encountered very small problems with my gearbox like light shudder when downshift sometimes, when cold, or quite rough upshift, compared to normal situation, that's to say, still very smooth. After 53000 kms smooth city driving then I asked for gearbox oil change to a specialized dealer, with correct oil (JWS3309). Old oil was very dark, almost black ! Now it's very very smooth in all situations, even cold. Robin Hi Robin and members i have felt a shudder now in reverse , and its hot here now 23C, i have 92k kms on the car. i will change the fluid in the gearbox with Eurol atf 1100. Now does any one Know if their is a drain plug and filler spout, ? i did not spot these while i was under the car during my last sever oil change at 12000miles . any advice on this please |
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C6Dave
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Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland |
Gearbox drain and fill guide is in downloads: - Click Here - | ||
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bdeithrick
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Member No: #70
Location: Greystones |
So had a look at the instructions and came to the conclusion that they were over complicated. Basicly i bought a torx set for €50 and these fit the Fluid Level Plug in the centre, this let go of 920ml of dirty black ATF. then i had and used a 17 Allen key to remove the Drain Plug, this is the outer thick lip of the Fluid Level Plug. this released a further 1830ml. total 2750ml. I refitted the Drain Plug. ( the Drain Plug is opened by a 17 Allen key and has a pipe about 2 inches which rises up into the box setting the oil level) refit the Fluid Level Plug I poured in the nice red fully synthetic Eurol ATF 1100. (N.B) replace the oil catcher basin under the drain cus you will need it to drain the extra thats higher than the level pipe. 3 litres was fed into the fill hole at the top of the box , under the air filter box, ( this air box needs removing.) (Also i made up a pipe to fit into a plastic milk bottle to fed the fluid into the small filler hole.) once 3 litres had been added and filler plug refitted, i started the engine and ran the gearbox thru it gears with brakes on and handbrake.this means R N D 1 2 3. and cycle thru 3 times to get the fluid in around the bands and gears. once the coolant and oil were up to temp , i left the engine idle on flat surface, i released the Fluid Level Plug this released 200 ml of mixed new n old black fluid. once it came to slow drip the Fluid Level Plug was refitted and tightened. level now correct. refit the air box and 2 pipes with air mass plugs on. plus various vacuum hoses. so i put in 3 litres, 200ml came out, so that's 2800ml + 4000 reckoned to be in the Torque converter. the car runs sweet as a nut now, its willing to pull in D and changes through the 6 gears lovely. its 4 times better than the way it as. It jerked in reverse and was not willing at traffic light on hot day, Dogged i called it. i also changed out the fuel filter and now it goes like a rocket , runs best it ever ran since I've owned it. had her up to 180kph  cant say wear!B, enjoy your summer. Slan ! |
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dsharples
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  Member No: #119
Location: Woodbridge |
Two questions: (1) Does anyone have any actual pictures with some orientation/practical home guide - as the first picture in the guide is unintelligible. I.e. looking up from under the car, its bolt x & y. (2) What is the ATF Spec? I have some PSA Esso ATF D 21065 which is what Citroen used latterly in my old XM - and I believe are recommending for the C6 (?), as well as some Total Fluide ATX, which I understood met the ZF standards for my old XM - but I never actually used (!). The Total Fluide ATX meets Dexron IID - but you seem to suggest that something more exotic is required Dexron IIE (e.g. Total Fluide SYN FE or equivalent). Regards, David. |
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gmerry
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Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
David, a subject of some interest to me... PSA list a part number in the mechanics guide, but given it's a Aisin transmission (Toyota subsidiary), it's as well to look at what Fords, Mazdas, Toyotas,Saabs use. There's also a Aisin part number. - Click Here - Read this as a possible fluid The Saab fluid is widely quoted on the internet. Regards G |
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gmerry
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Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
In the UK, probably easiest to obtain Comma AWS fluid - Click Here - specifically recommended for Aisin transmissions and exact match to the Ford Part number (WSS-M2XC-924-A) using the same transmission as the C6.. Regards G PS, the downloaded Citroen instructions specifically state to use Esso Red JWS3309 oil for the auto gearbox. We can be 99% sure that the Comma AWS stuff is the same as Esso are the parent company for Comma and the Comma oil will just be rebranded/labelled Esso oil in any case |
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