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Weather 'chaos' - why can't the government make up its mind? |
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tonyrome
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  Member No: #15
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Each year, when transport grinds to a halt in the UK, we're told it's just not worthwhile investing in specialist equipment because we don't have bad weather often enough. That's fine. Or at least, it would be, except that, after a few days, the government starts complaining about how much the chaos is 'costing' the country. I've just read a figure which claims the cost is £1 billion per day! The UK has already had several weeks of bad weather and we're not even out of December yet, so the amount of money could easily amount to £30 billion or more this year. Go back over the last 10 years and the cost would be hundreds of billions! Are they really trying to tell us that they couldn't buy decent kit for that money? Ridiculous. 
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drummond
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  Member No: #238
Location: Aldeburgh |
Why not introduce legislation for M&S (mud and snow) tyres, as is now the case in Germany, and always has been in Poland, Sweden and parts north? I get around with no problems, in the 20cm of snow here, with M&S rubber, and there are some steep hills near here. The new German law would appear to do- tonyrome could translate! Maybe it's too late for this year, but given the economic damage, a change by next year seems to be in order? |
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michaelb
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  Member No: #14
Location: London |
As someone who has just invested in winter tyres and getting very good use from them I'm all in favour of introducing such a law. It would bring about the reasonably priced wheel hotels which are common in Germany. I'm in Chamonix at the moment and the local town hall tells us it costs EUR €30,000 to clear and salt the roads after every snowfall - which are very frequent in these parts - so we, the taxpayers, have voted to stop salting. Everyone here is equipped with winter tyres and there are free buses for visitors. It's working very well. |
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C6Dave
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  Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland |
Just been reading an article on the AA Web site: - Click Here - There are several practical and economic reasons why winter tyres are not compulsory in this country. The Government though are taking advice on the recent bad weather and are looking to see if revised planning needs to be made.There are many parts of the UK that never or very rarely experience weather conditions that would justify use of winter tyres There are many car owners who choose not to drive at all when snow or ice are around Even assuming that the industry could supply tyres in sufficient volume, the overall cost would be prohibitive – estimated at £500/car x 30million cars = £15billion for wheels/tyres plus storage and fitting costs I saw an item yesterday from 1 scientist that said we could be in for a spell of severe winters in the UK for another 30 years! Heathrow and Gatwick have also bought machinery from Zurich Airport to help keep runways open, but that had to be driven overland Lets not forget that it's not only the UK though. There was a news item on BBC news at 1.00 that said Moscow had 9,000 snow ploughs out, but traffic was still at a standstill so being prepared isn't always that easy Eurostar had to run far slower than normal because of heavy snow in France and a lot of roads on the continent are closed because of heavy snow with lorries being banned from the roads in some countries. |
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Trainman
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 Member No: #86
Location: Penwortham |
C6Dave wrote ... Eurostar had to run far slower than normal because of heavy snow in France and a lot of roads on the continent are closed because of heavy snow with lorries being banned from the roads in some countries. It's not just Eurostar, this weather affects everything, Irish ferries and Stenna are cancelling boats, Scotrail cancelled over 80% of it's services for a few days the other week. People forget it's not just a matter of public services running, it the people working these services that are struggling to get to work. I got caught up in the M6 chaos the other night taking some 5 1/2 hours get home, normally a 40 minute journey. I agree that we don't have the equipment, and in all honesty I don't think we ever will. Governments, no matter who are to scared of spending money they can't gain something, politcally, out of it. Hey, what's new ?? |
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datmbn
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 Member No: #193
Location: MOTALA |
The purpose of an tire law is not to force every one to by winter tires, but to get the summer tires of the roads when it is winter roads. Some people says I don't drive when it is slippery so i don't need winter tires! Thats fine, but i have hard to trust them. If their is an law people are more likely to follow it then they are to follow there own sayings. With summer tires you are a danger not only to your self but to everyone near you, driving slower causes trafficjams and overtake accidentals, here is the Swedish law translated by Google Winter law says, among other things: It is permissible to use studded tires 1 October to 15 April and also during the time when it is or is risk for winter conditions. There are demands for winter tires for passenger cars and more. December 1 to March 31 if there is winter roads.I practice, it is the police who make the assessment if / when it's winter roads. A general definition of winter road conditions are: snow, ice or frost on the roadway. regards Mats |
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Trainman
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Member No: #86
Location: Penwortham |
datmbn wrote ... it is the police who make the assessment if / when it's winter roads. I can imagie this being fun, I drive from Preston to Warrington on an almost daily basis, through 3 different police force area's. Lancashire, Greater Manchester and Cheshire, can you imagine the chaos if just one Chief Constable said that winter tyres were mandatory and the other 2 didn't?? We would be sat on the hard shoulder with a boot full of wheels changing them at the 'County' Line just to stay legal.  The other problem, is that it's difficult enough to get people to pay road tax and car insurance as it is, even with the law's. Another set of tyres.................your having a 
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C6Dave
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Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland |
The greatest problem is those who simply drive too fast for the conditions. We have all seen it, I was on the inside lane of an icebound dual carriageway this morning doing 35 mph max in 4 wheel drive and there were still the idiots flying past at 50 mph + in a snow and ice covered outside lane at -8c Namely other 4X4's and white van man in the main, but a few others as well Can you imagine how fast they would feel it was safe to go with winter tyres on? Education and enforcement of driving standards in adverse weather conditions should be the way to go first. |
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RichardKC6
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 Member No: #49
Location: Leicestershire |
Your perception of safe is based on your experience of driving and conditions. I've driven across Canada in winter, in a Dodge Durango (4.7 V8 SUV, bit like a Grand Cherokee or Commander), 160kmh, one half of the car on packed ice, one half on cleared tarmac. What wasn't surprising was that I found it completely controllable - I could stop, anticipate and handle the car with absolute safety. What surprised me was that in those conditions, I was being passed by RWD pickup trucks with trailers. (When you're covering thousands of miles, you don't hang aboot  ).Given the choice, I'd rather drive on snow, than an apparently clear road in freezing conditions - in Britain. We have too much humidity, too much "water", for the freezing conditions to be so cold, for so long, to avoid getting sheet ice. Having said that, whilst driving in winter I exercise massive caution in terms of stopping distances, planning ahead and anticipating other road users' actions I still find it really irritating to be stuck behind someone who can't drive, lacks confidence and is dithering along at 20mph on NSL roads. Mostly because I know that the first hill they get to, they're going to come slithering to a halt rather than booting it and getting the momentum to get it up to the top. I wish proper M&S or Winter tyres were available in this country easily. Not studded, we really don't need those, but ones suited to the cold temperatures and with a harder edge on the treads. They make a great noise in Norway, too - you hear most cars fitted with them. Braking is the worst thing people seem to get wrong, after pulling away. And not knowing how the car is going to slide, so panicking when it does. As for the mandatory fitting of tyres - how about carrot, rather than stick - if you fit winter tyres to your car, you get an insurance discount between November and March. Simply send the receipt or provide the brand; in exchange if you crash due to having the wrong tyres in snow, you have a greater liability. |
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tonyrome
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Member No: #15
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Actually, I never mentioned mandatory fitting of winter tyres and I wasn't referring to that at all. I meant that the roads, airports, services, in fact the whole infrastructure, always grinds to a halt because councils and central government don't appear to ever be prepared for the onset of winter, even though it happens each year, as far as I can make out . That would be no issue if businesses accepted that people might stay at home, rather than risk driving to work, that shops would not sell many products or that people would understand their Xmas gifts may not arrive on time or that they may be stranded in airports etc. etc. However, since people never accept that and businesses and government always make such a big deal of their 'losses', why doesn't the government wake up to the fact that they should invest a lot more money in the right equipment to minimize the problems? Dave is right that it's not just the UK but it is the UK which is especially bad at coping, solely because there's a lack of investment. Frankfurt airport had 300 cancelled flights out of 1340 the other day and each of those 300 was only because the destination airports had problems. By comparison, Heathrow was completely closed and Brussels ran out of de-icer, can you believe?! I wonder how much de-icer you could buy for £1 billion... |
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RichardKC6
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Member No: #49
Location: Leicestershire |
Britain is unusually wet; but we've had a lot of years to figure out how to deal with it 
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arnie
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 Member No: #190
Location: N.ireland |
Not again!!!!!!! talk of another law to spend my very hard earned cash on something because of a few drivers who can"t adopt a different approach to driving conditions. Can i also point out that not everyone who owns a c6 is loaded, buying normal tyres is bad enough. DOWN WITH WINTER TYRES!!!!!!!!. |
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RichardKC6
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Member No: #49
Location: Leicestershire |
arnie wrote ... Can i also point out that not everyone who owns a c6 is loaded. Then why buy a C6, if you can't afford to run it properly? Rhetorical question, not aimed at you personally - it's the same as in the '80s, people who'd wait until Jaguar XJ-S/12s were banger money, then do things like putting in diesel engines or LPG conversions because they couldn't afford to run them. I complain about the C6's running costs, but that's because I really don't like the car or Citroën UK; I'm not getting good value from what I spend on it; personally I wish I could change it for something else. If you put winter tyres on for 3 months, you're not using your normal tyres for that distance. It's a small additional expense for a lot of extra safety and usability. |
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tonyrome
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Member No: #15
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arnie wrote ... Not again!!!!!!! talk of another law to spend my very hard earned cash on something because of a few drivers who can"t adopt a different approach to driving conditions. You're not understanding the point! The government claims that it costs the country £1 billion in lost revenue each day of bad weather. That's money you are already paying in the form of taxes, since the government will always find a way to claw this money back from you. If it costs so much, the government should buy decent clearing equipment, which will make a difference in the future, save money each time this happens and reduce this 'chaos' suffered each year. It's something called investment .Oh, and whilst it's not the point I was trying to make, Richard is spot on when he talks about people trying to run cars which are too expensive for them. I don't suggest everyone is 'loaded' on here but you should always live within your means. If you want to run an expensive car, you should have enough money to do it properly. Otherwise, downgrade or take the bus. And I'm not saying that from a position of mega wealth, either. I've cycled and taken public transport in the past when I couldn't afford to run a car. There are far too many people running cars, who skip servicing, run on bald tyres and fumes, have fake MoTs, no insurance etc. They seem to think running a car is a God given right or something... |
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michaelb
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Member No: #14
Location: London |
arnie wrote ... Can i also point out that not everyone who owns a c6 is loaded, buying normal tyres is bad enough. If you saw my statement of income for last year you would have to agree that I am not loaded. Even I've invested in winter tyres because once I'm rolling on winter rubber my expensive summer tyres are happily parked in a dark corner of my garage not wearing out. The real cost of me getting winter tyres was GBP £200 on steel rims. My argument in favour of legislation like in Germany is, although like anyone else I hate new legislation, I can see that if the whole country swapped to winter tyres the economies of scale would be huge. Instead of paying £200 at a main Citroën dealer like I did I would expect to find the same steel rims on eBay for £75. And tyre hotels would spring up. As I've said elsewhere the town I'm living in at the moment pays EUR €30,000 for road clearance after every snowfall. There are only 10,000 council tax payers here of which I am one. Recently we've voted not to salt the roads because it was costing us too much. Everyone here uses winter tyres - if saves a fortune in the long run and the economy keeps moving. |
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