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What would cause loss of brakes, suspension and steering all at once?

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bigbruggsy   
Thu Dec 05 2019, 08:14am
Joined: Mar 26 2018
Member No: #3483
Location: Den Bommel
Hello all, I'm looking at purchasing a second C6 that I saw at an online auction site. It lists as one of its faults "Defective hydraulic system no suspension, steering or brakes"
What could cause all of these to fail at once?

Regards Damian
C6Dave   
Thu Dec 05 2019, 08:21am

Joined: Oct 01 2009
Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland
Suspension and steering are both powered off the LDS pump so maybe the maxi fuse has blown because of a defective pump motor?
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bigbruggsy   
Thu Dec 05 2019, 08:40am
Joined: Mar 26 2018
Member No: #3483
Location: Den Bommel
Thanks C6Dave for such a fast response. Replacing a LDS pump is that a big job? Costly?
arconell3   
Thu Dec 05 2019, 10:39am
Joined: Jun 28 2012
Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar
Hi Damian,

The hydraulic pump is located directly underneath the LDS tank. Pump failure is often caused by a leaking LDS tank, resulting in LDS dripping on the pump motor housing and getting inside, fouling the brushes. In most cases these pumps can be repaired.

I noticed you are located in the Netherlands. In which case you can get in touch with Centre C6 (Citroën Aalsmeer) in Aalsmeer, they can repair the pump for you. To get it out you need to depressurize the hydraulic system, which involves the use of a Diagbox, Citroëns' diagnostic tool.

Leaking LDS tanks are invariably caused by overfilling with LDS and subsequently lifting the car on a 2 column bridge without first taking off the tank filler cap.

Lowering the car back on its wheels causes the LDS to flow back into the tank with a vengeance, causing a rapid buildup of pressure, thus ripping the tank...

Regards, Robert
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Tjensen   
Thu Dec 05 2019, 01:04pm
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
I believed steering was on a separate pump(Or am I wrong ?), also brakes on a separate system.

LDS pump failure will stop suspension

Auxillary belt problem (had it twice) will make steering extremely heavy, stop circulation in cooling system and stop charging.

Brakes problem: vacuum system failure

The combination of the three: suspension, steering and brakes failing seem strange. It could be a simple explanation and worth checking up.

arconell3   
Thu Dec 05 2019, 02:10pm
Joined: Jun 28 2012
Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar
Tjensen wrote ...

I believed steering was on a separate pump(Or am I wrong ?), also brakes on a separate system.

LDS pump failure will stop suspension

Auxillary belt problem (had it twice) will make steering extremely heavy, stop circulation in cooling system and stop charging.

Brakes problem: vacuum system failure

The combination of the three: suspension, steering and brakes failing seem strange. It could be a simple explanation and worth checking up.




Only the C6 with 2.2 HDI has a separate power steering system, all V6-engined cars have a belt-driven power steering pump, taking the LDS from the same LDS tank as used by the suspension. So loss of LDS also causes loss of power steering. Brakes on all C6es always use brake fluid, not LDS.

Regards, Robert
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bigbruggsy   
Thu Dec 05 2019, 02:21pm
Joined: Mar 26 2018
Member No: #3483
Location: Den Bommel
The photos they've provided do show what looks to be the LDS pump in pieces in the boot, also the photos show the car sitting at its lowest position with the RHS of the front bumper partially taken off.

C6Dave   
Thu Dec 05 2019, 03:13pm

Joined: Oct 01 2009
Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland
The pump itself is not a known weak point, it's the motor which fails. It can be replaced with one from a C5 and there is a forum thread on it explaining how to possibly fix the contacts on the motor / replace it.
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bigbruggsy   
Thu Dec 05 2019, 04:29pm
Joined: Mar 26 2018
Member No: #3483
Location: Den Bommel
Thanks for you input, I've also had a look on the forum and its a job within my means so I'll see if i can get the car at a good price. I'll let you know how I get on.
cruiserphil   
Fri Dec 06 2019, 09:50am

Joined: Jan 24 2010
Member No: #38
Location: Celbridge
Hello Damian,

As Tjensen and Arconell3 confirm, the brake circuit is separate and conventional servo assisted with ABS. So the seller may be assuming the brake issue because of experience with older hydraulic Citroens. Sounds like it's suspension pump failure and would be a handy fix. Best of luck with it,

Best regards,

Phil C.
bigbruggsy   
Fri Dec 06 2019, 11:45am
Joined: Mar 26 2018
Member No: #3483
Location: Den Bommel
Hi all, just an update the car sold for more than I willing to gamble with. Best of luck to the new owner.
2 User said Thank You to bigbruggsy for this Post :
 C6Dave (06 December 2019) , cruiserphil (06 December 2019)
Paulius   
Sun Dec 08 2019, 01:54pm
Joined: Aug 14 2014
Member No: #1821
Location: Vilnius
Although power steering uses the same oil, the pump is separate and is driven by the accessories belt. If there is a LDS leak, it can cause both the suspension and power steering pumps to fail.
I had my power steering pump fail and had a really hard time finding a replacement. Ended up buying a "refurbished" one, and it produces a whining noise when the car is cold. Also, the power steering lines corrode sooner than the suspension lines. When that occurs, you lose all of the LDS and both the power steering and suspension pumps fail. Those lines are not easy to replace either, and are extremely expensive if ordered new. I had min refurbished in a hydraulic systems service (where they do tractors and stuff), and my power steering sucks now - it seems that the lines are "flexing" from the pressure and therefore wasting the assist power, turning the wheel when stationary is really hard.

So troubleshooting this issue would also include testing the lines too.

Regarding the brakes, it is a common issue when the brake booster corrodes and loses pressure, making the brakes pedal less and less sensitive. My brakes pedal usually becomes "hard" over night and it takes a few seconds for it to get soft after starting the car. Once i almost bumped into a car behind, as the brakes didn't work for a few seconds after engaging reverse gear immeadetely after starting the car up.

All in all - I would bet that this car has both issues, both being expensive to fix. The most reliable thing about my C6 has always been the suspension, whilst power steering and brakes failed.

New power steering pump (wouldn't go for a 2nd hand) would cost somewhere around 500 euros. New power steering lines - around 1200 euros.

If the suspension pump is gone - I would just go for a 2nd hand one.

Brake booster should also cost around 500 euros new. Wouldn't go for a 2nd hand either, as they are all already "rusty".

So 2000euros just in parts without labour.

And be prepared for other things to DEFINITELY go bad:
* instrument display cluster - 100 euros to fix, usually goes bad anyways even after fixing (mine did)
* 2.7 engine and transmission - I would only buy one if there would be a possibility to do an extenive road-test so that I could get both the engine and the transmission to get up to a high temperature. For the engine - if it makes cluttering noise just after starting up or it's top end "clicks" when hot - immeadetely walk away. If the suspension is not 100% smooth when cold and does make a quiet whining noise on 6th gear - also a walk away.

I am really sad to say this, but C6 is definitely "worth it" only if you are prepared to invest a lot of money. Otherwise, it is becoming too expensive to maintain - they are starting to rust inside and out, their engines and transmissions are wearing out.

Still love mine, and after all of the money I had to invest - I can't stop now. It's a money pit, but CAN be worth it.
C6Dave   
Sun Dec 08 2019, 03:08pm

Joined: Oct 01 2009
Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland
[quote]Still love mine, and after all of the money I had to invest - I can't stop now. It's a money pit, but CAN be worth it.[/blockquote]

We all know how you feel, but still we persevere ....
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