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Bosch Alternator for 2.7HDi

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gmerry   
Wed Oct 01 2014, 10:11am
Joined: Dec 11 2009
Member No: #21
Location: Scotland
Hi all, some useful leads for anyone with alternator problems on a 2.7Hdi.

OE supplier was Bosch, their reference 0121715001. Citroen part number 5705CJ. The same altenator was fitted to Citroen C5 (III), Peugeot 407 and Peugeot 607 but ONLY variants fitted with a 2.7HDi V6 diesel engine. The alternator is unique to PSA applications and only those with a 2.7HDi as above.

Wood Auto Supplies Ltd list this alternator in their catalogue as ALT10571 and will be able to sell you a complete outright alternator or pretty much any replacement part such as rotors, rectifiers, bearings etc.

Regards
G


3 User said Thank You to gmerry for this Post :
 C6Dave (01 October 2014) , 321dave (01 October 2014) , e3steve (18 October 2015)
Tjensen   
Wed Oct 01 2014, 10:58am
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
Thanks. For the 3,0 Hdi version it is a different alternator : Citroen no 5702J8, Valeo no 440207, and Wood no 14503 (out of stock). No Bosch alternative. Prices are given from 250 to 1000 EUR. One problem is that the aircondition must be opened and some tubes removed to change it, so Citroen calculates 5 hours. That is my reason for checking everything before the expensive operation. (and why the stable 12,87V charging ??)
And again: useful information at this site and in the "Tech documents section" !!!






gmerry   
Wed Oct 01 2014, 11:25am
Joined: Dec 11 2009
Member No: #21
Location: Scotland
Did you try for a 2nd hand Grand Picasso unit?

regards
G

Most mechanics would find a way of moving the air-con components temporaily out of the way, rather than removal with all that implies.

1 User said Thank You to gmerry for this Post :
 Tjensen (01 October 2014)
Tjensen   
Wed Oct 01 2014, 08:35pm
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
Same unit as Grand Picasso and may be changed in less than 5 hours, now I like the information...... Tomorow general service at a better Citroen garage (my usual trusted one) and hope they have some solution. But I plan to drive 1000 km in the weekend, on 12,8 V, with brand new 110 Ah battery, hope it is responsible......
C6Dave   
Thu Oct 02 2014, 07:47am

Joined: Oct 01 2009
Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland
Tjensen wrote ...

But I plan to drive 1000 km in the weekend, on 12,8 V, with brand new 110 Ah battery, hope it is responsible......

Charge and take the old battery with you so you can switch it over, just in case.

A TOC member had to with his Traction when it stopped charging in France and he covered more miles than that
Website
drummond   
Thu Oct 02 2014, 11:32am
Joined: Sep 20 2010
Member No: #238
Location: Aldeburgh
Dave, wot TOC member woz that?! Oh, I forgot, it was the starter motor...ps, I've tried to pm you twice and it does not seem to come to you.

Tim
C6Dave   
Thu Oct 02 2014, 01:38pm

Joined: Oct 01 2009
Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland
Michael Broadbent Tim. Had his Metallic Blue Light 15 for around a year?

It appears in this video - Click Here - around 30 seconds in, Michaels in the Green T and James Geddes is doing some testing.

No idea what's wrong with the PM system other than in/out boxes could be full?
Website
Tjensen   
Thu Oct 02 2014, 11:07pm
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
STRANGE TWIST OF THE CHARGING PROBLEM

Today my usual garage had the car for a full service and check. Especially the charging system with only 12,8V. They argued that the ECU on the C6 regulates voltage, so low voltage just mean that charging is not needed. Lexia had no record of problems, just stable voltage and "charging not needed", They also said that I would be warned by the system well before serious problems.

And after that 400km happy driving without warning of any kind. Can this be true ?

And what should we then think about the battery company that declared my charging system faulty and the the Citroen dealer that charged(!)me 100£ to be sure that the alternator was dead and that 1200£ was the price for changing ?
gmerry   
Fri Oct 03 2014, 07:19am
Joined: Dec 11 2009
Member No: #21
Location: Scotland
Tjensen, I think a few tests might sort out what is hapenning:-

You will need a Digital Volt meter and a clamp-on "tong" meter (which should be available to hire if you do not wish to purchase).

First test, check battery voltage. Turn on lights, radio and observe battery voltage fall until " economy mode" kicks in. Start engine, observe battery voltage recover as charging restarts.

Second test, would be to set up the car idling, add all possible loads (heated seats, heated rear window, lights, stereo). Make the windows go up and down for dynamic loads. Trace large charging cable from alternator (I think this one goes via the front jump start connections) and observe the current flow from the alternator. At the same stage monitor voltage (at the front jump start connections). With all major loads connected, there should be > 150 amps coming from the alternator, your alternator is rated at 230 amps!

Regards
G

Note, actual ECU for voltage regulation resides inside the alternator. Did the Citroen dealer specify which "other" ECU they were referring to.
2 User said Thank You to gmerry for this Post :
 Tjensen (03 October 2014) , e3steve (18 October 2015)
drummond   
Fri Oct 03 2014, 07:26am
Joined: Sep 20 2010
Member No: #238
Location: Aldeburgh
I think that if you put the lights on and the aircon on 'lo', the alternator will start and the battery will charge. If it does, at 14.4v, you have your answer?

Tim

PS, I've now looked at G's post!
1 User said Thank You to drummond for this Post :
 Tjensen (03 October 2014)
Tjensen   
Fri Oct 03 2014, 08:24am
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
Thanks !!! I will do the testing. I have a good dgital multimeter. What is a clamp-on "tong" meter ?? I also have a battery tester that can simulate load up to the relevant 600 and 800CCa. After the 400 km, I connected a good charger that reported "full" after 90 min, Without load I only measure 12,35V at the charginbg points in the engine bay. Maybe some resistance /bad earth somewhere in the system ? I will measure as adviced by gmerry and drummond and report back. (but I don't think I can measure current flow)
gmerry   
Fri Oct 03 2014, 09:34am
Joined: Dec 11 2009
Member No: #21
Location: Scotland
The clamp meter will measure current flow without having to be inserted into the circuit.

See typical DIY quality unit from Maplin, less tha £40 quid which will give you some direct numbers instead of guessing. - Click Here -.

You could spend a lot more if you want a technician quality unit from say Fluke.

Regards
G
Tjensen   
Fri Oct 03 2014, 12:33pm
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
Some data :
Battery : 12,47V (New battery)
Battery, measured in engine bay : 12,44
Engine running, idle : 12,87
Engine running, idle with much load : 12,7
Battery tester, 600CCA and 800CCA load : 9,7V ("weak") measured in engine bay
Engine off, lights and load on for 30 min ==> Economy mode (12,0V)
Starting engine : 13,4V at idle, gradually falling towards 12,8 as battery tops up. Turning engine off, battery 12,7V, sinking to 12,6

My conclusion so far : System OK, charging OK, Voltage rises to 13,4 when charging is necessary.

But: all voltages are lower than they should be (from 0,3-1,0V), maybe there is resistance and loss somewhere in the path, or maybe generator have a slight problem ? I will not use 1200£ on a new generator: driving, starting, system is fine. New battery and maybe top-uop charging each week ? Or I could consider a comptenet car-electro garage for a better diagnosis ?

Main point: Voltage rises when needed, so diagnose of damaged alterantor at least partly wrong.


speedfix   
Fri Oct 03 2014, 01:15pm
Joined: Sep 28 2012
Member No: #1043
Location: south west
"I think a few tests might sort out what is hapenning"
Can't work out a what a current flow will do?

I'm with Drummond with the 14.4v test, if you have not gotten 14.4v with all the electrics on then you have a problem but not as many think to require a new alternator.

A new regulator will in most cases be the cause however many have a corrosion failing on the regulator ground bolt fixing that will give the system a working low voltage.
1 User said Thank You to speedfix for this Post :
 Tjensen (03 October 2014)
gmerry   
Fri Oct 03 2014, 01:26pm
Joined: Dec 11 2009
Member No: #21
Location: Scotland
Your battery may only be operating at 50-60% true Amphour capacity, as it does not appear to be getting a complete charge. This won't help with winter approaching. Is there anything special with the battery chemisty that you havn't noted?

Is the alternator configured as a battery sensing alternator (I was blocked when I tried the technical download). This style of alternator uses a separate non current carrying wire to control the excitation (voltage regulation)?

Do you know how to check the battery charge using a volt meter?

(Basically disconnect, leave to soak for 12 hours, then remove the surface charge - lights on for 1 minute - then measure voltage and temperature and compare to chart for battery chemistry).

Regards
G

1 User said Thank You to gmerry for this Post :
 Tjensen (03 October 2014)
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