| C6owners :: Forums :: C6 Support :: The Garage |
<< Previous thread | Next thread >>
|
Coolant outlet housing failure |
    Please Register to enjoy additional Member Benefits |
| Author | Post | ||
adrianvp
 
|
|
||
   Member No: #704
Location: Wamboin New South Wales |
I have had a look at a few posts and and it appears that this is not uncommon. I had been having a regular need to top up the coolant without quite knowing why when after trying to clear an EGR problem with "Liquid Molly diesel engine intake cleaner" I took the car out for a drive and the STOP light suddenly came on with coolant temp too high message. I stopped immediately and let the engine cool right down before driving very sedately about 5-6 km home. A careful look seemed to show coolant coming from the location of the outlet housing. I downloaded the Citroen instructions from this site and followed them pretty well the whole way through. Getting the hose item 12 in the third figure off was difficult and I tried undoing the 4 item 15 bolts. Getting to the last one front left of vehicle was being difficult and whilst wiggling the hose the whole spigot came off!!! I'm now waiting for parts but will trailer my car to my brother's workshop because the glow plugs need doing too. Could a slow water leak from this area cause problems with the camshaft timing sensor? I have a P1016 fault showing. Could one or both of these two cause EGR problems - limp home type power. It has been suggested to me that timing sensors are somewhat sensitive if they get over hot |
||
|
|
|||
gmerry
|
|
||
  Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Hi Adrian, Coolant Outlet Housing...is this the Thermostat Tank/Housing? What Diagnostic Computer are you using? What were the EGR (Valve) symptoms and error codes, prior to the overheating? What was the intent of using the Liquid Moly diesel intake cleaner? When you drove the car, the 5-6kms after the STOP warning, how much coolant was showing in the coolant tank? Sorry so many questions G Could you check the error code P0016 perhaps? PS, last time you posted, you were going to visit a Ford (Explorer with the same 2.7 V6 Diesel) dealer to sort your long term camshaft sensor problem. What was the outcome? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
adrianvp
|
|
||
|
Member No: #704
Location: Wamboin New South Wales |
Q1 Yes That's what the Citroen doco calls it. Its under/behind the butterfly housing. I took it off. When trying to wiggle one of the hoses (the innermost one) to get it off, the spigot to which it was attached broke off. The 'rust' marks on it indicated that it had been cracked for some time. The major Sydney dealer has them in stock for AU$220 ~pounds120. I am trying to source one from non oem places or from Ford, Land Rover etc Hopefully more cheaply!! Q2 My brother who has a workshop in Melbourne has a generic diagnostic tool called a Launchpad 2. My local PSA dealer from whom I got the diagnosis of the (P0016 Sorry about the error I was relying on my memory, not always reliable) has whatever an official dealer has. I have also used a french car specialist non dealer workshop in Melbourne who has a much better diagnostic device for PSA vehicles but I don't know its make/model. I can find out next week and let you know.The diagnosis by the local dealer found three faults; the P0016 camshaft/crankshaft sync mismatch, an P1351 pre/post heating relay circuit (for which I am about to change the glo plugs) and a U1205 which I propose to check out further next week Q3 The symptom was lack of power. I hadn't put a diagnostic tool over it when the coolant outlet housing failed. Typically it would not rev over 2700 and would hold a low gear when going up hill. However it would cruise on the flat at 120km/h Q4 Its designed to clean the air intake, turbo inlet side, intercooler, etc of carbon deposits by softening them and washing them away. Made in Germany. Main "active ingredients" are Xylene, acetone, and benzyl alcohol. Comes with a 500mm long hose to poke down the manifold. Directions:- run engine at 1500 rpm squirt 3-5 secs, several times, if engine speed increases (more than a little)stop squirting. Widely used and has a good reputation in the trade. The carbon in the butterfly valve was quite soft and wet, albeit in places 2-3mm thick, Presumably thanks to this stuff. Trade magazines in Aust have had pictures of manifolds carboned up to less than half original diameter which this stuff can clear out. You should be able to get it in UK. It may save an EGR valve replacement which is mainly why I was using it. Q5 It was wet at the bottom, I can't say exactly how deep but given the height of the coolant outlet housing it probably wasn't completely dry unless some coolant had been forced out whilst the system was under pressure (probsbly true). I appreciate driving it wasn't a good thing to do But I had been sitting out on a lonely piece of road for about an hour. By then the engine was quite cold. I had called out the local RAC equivalent (the National Roads and Motorists Association, NRMA) but the truck hadn't come. I stopped immediately the STOP sign came on idled for a minute or two and turned it off. There were no obvious rattles or odd noises during the brief ~5 mins drive back Q6 They weren't of much help. I wanted to see wherethe camshaft sensor is but they didn't have a vehicle for me to look at. By the way it is a locally AUST designed Ford Territory, not the Ranger, which is a Mazda design. Its an SUV in either 2 or 4wheel drive. The standard petrol engine is the Ford Falcon 4.0l straight six. The diesel engine is 2.7 but I understand it to be single turbo and it is certainly North South rather than east west so the coolant housing may be different. I'm going back there again because if the housing is the same it will almost certainly be cheaper. Thank you very much for your help so far Adrian |
||
|
|
|
||
|
gmerry
|
|
||
|
Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Hi Adrian, sorry to hear more about your troubles. Here's some observations:- Q1. The PSA thermostat housing is different to the Landrover and Jaguar applications (probably also different to the Ford Australia application). They come up for sale on Ebay UK sites if you can get the seller to ship otherwise I think you have previous offers from this site of assistance with local UK purchase and private postage. By the way, LR use an outlet tank on the cylinder heads and then a remote thermostat housing. I havn't looked at the Jaguar setup but I'm pretty sure its similar to the LR concept. Note, if it was my money I would buy the local thermostat housing, fit it and see if the engine is salvageable, before worrying about any other issues (see Q5). Q5 Given that you have driven the engine after overheating and loss of coolant, there is a significant chance that engine damage has occurred. Ideally you need to delve into this before proceeding with Glowplug removals. Keep in mind that the coolant temperature sensor with these engines is in the "wrong" location and does not in effect give any pre-warning of failure. You might want to make yourself up scenario table. A/ Fix Cooling System - engine /head damage repair engine / remove heads /fix Glowplugs -engine / head damage scrap vehicle - no engine /head damage, proceed with glowplug removal and replacement B/ Remove Glowplugs, extract any sheared off plugs without head removal etc Q4. In my experience, EGR failure on these engines is down to the drive motor/electronics in the EGR valve actuator. Cleaner won't help whatsoever. Given the huge amount of oily soot that builds up in the throttle body and inlet tracts, IMHO its very risky to loosen these deposits unless one is prepared to remove the components and thoroughly clean them off the engine. If what you are finding is soft, that is because of the engine oil that comes through with the charge air from the turbos. I.E, a big lump of oilly soot going into the engine is going to cause piston ring, valve or turbo problems. Given your original explanation that the camshaft sensor problems started around the tine of the cambelt change, I'm not sure that the thermostat housing/coolant leakage problem has got much in common with the P0016 issue. Best of luck G |
||
|
|
|
||
|
adrianvp
|
|
||
|
Member No: #704
Location: Wamboin New South Wales |
Thanks again for the comments. I appreciate that I have run a risk in running the engine at all without adequate cooling. I'm just hoping there is no damage. We'll see when we get it back together. I have bought the camshaft & crankshaft sensors and am in process of getting the glo plugs. My intent is to fit the bits I have and then see whether the engine goes OK. As I see it now that I have them the cost of the parts is small in relation to the amount of work involved in fitting them. You might say it's a sunk cost. Your comments re the EGR System are particularly useful. Without having done a diagnosis we can't even be sure that it is the problem, albeit that the symptoms suggest it. I would have otherwise surmised that the build up of gunk was causing the EGR valves to stick. This of course would overload the solenoid positioners and maybe cause them to fail:- certainly the electronics won't like dealing with a sticky valve. Once we can confirm that the EGR system is the issue causing the power loss we can decide whether to replace the EGR valves. The power loss could be due to either the timing sensor or even to the long term intermittent low coolant level caused by the small leak or even by the leaky water pump which was fixed when the timing belt was done. Thanks again Adrian |
||
|
|
|
||
|
gmerry
|
|
||
|
Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Hi Adrian, the gunk is caused by hot sooty gas and lube oil mixing. Upstream of the butterfly housing, from the intercooler and turbos, there is oil in the system. The oil originates from the crankcase fumes and turbo bearings. On its own, the lube oil carryover does not form gunk. On the EGR circuit, from the exhaust manifold takeoff through the cooler, EGR valve and up to the butterfly housing, the hot sooty gas does not cause any gunk, just light sooty deposits. However in the butterfly housing, the hot sooty gas and the lube oil carryover mix and from there into the cylinder head, there are perfect conditions for forming a lot of gunk. There are pictures on this website showing what it looks kike and how bad it can get. Regards G |
||
|
|
|
||
e3steve
|
|
||
 Member No: #1163
Location: Warsash, Hants & Palma de Mallorca, Spain |
A lot of it is, I'd say, formed as a result of using 'normal' diesel fuel. Mine's been considerably cleaner inside the airboxes -- downstream of the butterfly -- since I started using premium diesel... Just a thought. 
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
adrianvp
|
|
||
|
Member No: #704
Location: Wamboin New South Wales |
Just a brief update. I took the car to my brother's workshop in Melbourne (650km) on a trailer after removing the butterfly valve myself. The butterfly valve was quite dirty & I eventually got it about 90% clean. The plenums/intake manifolds were also very dirty, cleaned them out as best as possible without removing them, which looked rather a big job. Squirted cleaner down into the actual EGR valves, hopefully this will release them somewhat. As of Friday afternoon the car has the new coolant outlet housing in place, with pipes connected, the new glo plugs fitted, (2 were failed) and the EGR system cleaned out as well as practicable. We didn't get the car entirely back together as I had to return to Canberra and am pretty busy this week. By next week we should have the car together to the point where we can start it and run diagnostics to see what comes up. However the real test will come when we drive it. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
e3steve
|
|
||
|
Member No: #1163
Location: Warsash, Hants & Palma de Mallorca, Spain |
Out of interest, Adrian, how did the glowplug extractions pan out? | ||
|
|
|
||
321dave
|
|
||
|
Member No: #614
Location: Dublin |
e3steve wrote ... Out of interest, Adrian, how did the glowplug extractions pan out? Hi Steve, I was all set to finally tackle the timing belt and glow plugs last weekend, and just as i was driving the car in to the garage last Saturday to work on the engine, i noticed a big spill of coolant under the center of the car! I had been aware of the usual potential coolant leaks from this forum and i had also changed the radiator out as well because of a slow leak. It turned out to be the coolant inlet tank near the water pump had cracked and was leaking at the o ring (like every other inlet tank that fails eventually on a 2.7HDI. So i set about tackling that first. But strangely i had bought all the tanks anyway to chance out, particularly the outlet tank when i was doing the timing belt. Of course the outlet tank looked almost like new and the inlet tank was in bad condition (the plastic near the o ring was almost like soft clay and breaking down). So, im back on to the glow plug extraction task this saturday, but i'll let you know how i get on with that and post a few images! Hopefully they will come away cleanly. Fingers crossed. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
adrianvp
|
|
||
|
Member No: #704
Location: Wamboin New South Wales |
Just a further update on my car. Firstly getting four of the glo plugs out was quite easy. The other two required significant torque on the socket and were a bit squeaky (even after being doused on WD40) but came out successfully. We put copperease grease on the new ones when they went in. Later on we were able to clear the glo plug fault. Next we had to sort out the suspected "EGR fault" which having the diagnostic tool available turned out to be the rear turbocharger actuator. Getting to it was quite difficult as you have to remove the DPF and there is very little space available to get it out. The Citroen workshop manual says that for an actuator failure "replace the turbocharger". We decided to take the actuator apart and found a broken wire/dry joint between the actuator electronics and the actuator motor. Three minutes with a soldering iron and $~2500 saved!! After putting it all back together(several hours of work) took it for a drive and the motor went like a charm. No apparent damage from the loss of cooling incident Hooray!! However, we started having problems with the suspension not pumping up. So the car is not back on the road, It is awaiting a new suspension pump which should be arriving next week. I'll be off to Melbourne to put it in and see if I can have a going vehicle for a while |
||
|
|
|
||
|
gmerry
|
|
||
|
Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Adrian, that sound like very patient work. Good thing you don't need the car as a daily driver! On a lighter note, wondered why you reached for the WD40 instead of a can of CRC?. For those who havn't used it, here's a link - Click Here - |
||
|
|
|
||
travlician
|
|
||
 Member No: #350
Location: Paradera |
Adrianvp, do you remember the actual fault(s) reported in Lexia? I do get an occasional "Turbo charger control valve mechanical failure". P1016 does not appear in my list and P0016 is for gasoline engines only. | ||
|
|
|
||
|
321dave
|
|
||
|
Member No: #614
Location: Dublin |
Hi Adrian, would you say the engine is smoother and less noisy now on startup? I still have to tackle the glow plugs myself as I didn't have enough time when replacing the timing belt recently. Could you remember the position of the two glow plugs which were sticking a bit on you? We're they on front of engine? or on one side of the V if that makes sense! Thanks again, as I'm just ready to go back in now and remove them all and I'm also going to replace the plug cables as well (the black and orange cable tops) in case I break them as well. I've pretty much broken every other bit of engine plastic I've had the pleasure to be in contact with so far (but was well warned by e3steves nice tutorial). Well done anyway for your perseverence. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Cisco
|
|
||
 Member No: #1429
Location: Glasgow |
Not sure where to post this, changed out the inlet tank today, together with the alternator and the idler roller. Embarrassed to say it took me nearly 10 hours to complete  Lots of care required both removing the hoses and re-connecting the new inlet.As with others, the plastic at the inlet had failed under the O-ring. I hope I don't have to do that job again. Big thanks to Phil for his great tutorial. ATB Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
Go to page >>
|
|
 User Colour Key:Head Administrator, Administrator, C6 owner, Technical Expert, C6 Premier Discount Club |
|
Privacy Policy | Cookie Policy | Site Disclaimer | Contact Details | Warranty | Sitemap | C6 Insurance | Quick Facts | Re Call Info | Downloads | Error Codes
| Site and Graphics created by: C6Dave Forum Icons by Axialis Emotes by Seb | 
|
