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Pulling to one side. |
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arconell3
 
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   Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar |
Moving away a bit from the "pulling to one side", the engine oil discussion is certainly also very interesting. Just a few reminders, as already pointed out by TJensen. Although for the very early 2.7 engines, an ACEA B3 oil was specified, shortly afterwards that changed to C2, when Total made the Ineo ECS 5W30 available. The main difference between B3 and C2 is that the C2 is a low SAPS (low Sulhur and Phosphorus content) oil, which is very important for diesel engines with particle filters. But there is more to it than meets the eye. Both sulphur and phosphorus can form extremely hard deposits in combination with a number metals under high temperature conditions*, i.e. during the combustion process. These deposits are formed on a number of surfaces, but specifically on and directly around the orifices of the injectors, clogging them up and having a detrimental effect on the spray pattern. The result is that the injected fuel comes out as a jet instead of a fine spray. The jet effectively washes away the oil film on the cylinder, specifically during post injection, ruining the lubrication of cylinder walls... Oil and fuel are washed down into the sump, the oil becomes diluted rapidly. So, low SAPS oil is not only important for the longevity of your FAP system, but also for your engine! The other differences between C2 and B3, e.g. lubricity, viscosity etc. are basically (based on the ACEA specs) non-existent. (C1 oils have an even lower SAPS content). *If you are interested in reading up on the formation of such deposits, drop me a line. I've got a number of articles describing tests both on engines and in the lab concerning this issue. Regards, Robert |
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Ranger12
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  Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
Wow! Head spinning stuff this oil business! Thank you for your very welcome advice, I'm about to pick up the car today, so I should be able to get the oil specs so I can decide whether to drain and refill it all myself, or if it will be ok as is. The garage has said that they have got the rear wheels central, though he said something about the wheel arch liner which I didn't quite catch (seemed like a part-formed) excuse to me, so I am expecting to find the rear end sitting up and the wheels well ... I'll find out soon. Thank you all again for your invaluable help, ignorance is a C6 killer for sure. |
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Ranger12
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Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
OK I've picked up the car, the rear wheels appear to be central now, the suspension is equal side to side but 6cm clearance front 8cm clearance rear (Top of tyre to centre of wheel arches), it looks a bit high, however it does feel better in that the front and rear suspension now feel similar on the road, whereas the rear felt quite different to the front before. Still pulling to the left exactly as before. Oil wise I got the specs of the oil they used for the Autobox, and engine. They are;- Autobox - Comma ASW Semi-Synthetic (Specific to Aisin-Warner automatic transmissions (inc SAAB & Volvo)). Density @ 20°C = 0.847 g/cm3 Viscosity @ 100°C = 7.5 cSt Viscosity @ 40°C = 35 cSt Phosphorous = 0.03% Colour - Red Pour Point = -45°C Suitable for use - ATF, JWS 3309 / ATF, VW G 055 025 / ATF, Toyota Type T-IV / Ford WSS-MC2924-A / Volvo 1161540. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Engine Oil = Synthetic 5w-30 ACEA C4 Product Code = PCM011 Revision = 20181024 Product Profile = ACEA C4, MB 226.51, Renault RN 0720. Product Description. A low SAPS, fully synthetic multi-grade oil. Advanced additive technology ensures optimum performance of engine components, including diesel particulate filters (DPF) and three-way catalysts (TWC) systems, where present. Formulated to provide long term protection to emission control systems, Protecting these systems helps to maintain optimal emissions cleanliness throughout the life-cycle of an engine, increasing environmental friendliness. Density @ 15°C = 0.851 Flash Point (°C) = 212 Kinematic Viscosity cSt @ 100°C = 12 Kinematic Viscosity cSt @ 40°C = 69 Pour Point (°C) = -45 Total Base Number (mg KOH/g) = 6.0 Viscosity Index = 172 So the gearbox has semi-synthetic compatible with JWS 3309 (mixed with whatever was there before), and the engine, Synthetic 5w30 ACEA C4 (unknown brand). I would like the absolute best oils (period), that cover everything needed in terms of protection. If I have to sell a few children, grannies into slavery for it, so be it, it's a C6!, I'm sure everyone would understand .... wouldn't they? As this appears to be a matter of preference as well as safety, I'm going to have to scratch my noggin some more and decide which way to go. It seems C1 oils may be what I go for, but does the term 'Low ash' mean low sulphur and low phosphorous together, or is that another characteristic of oils? Ideally I don't want to have to compromise between protecting the engine or it's ancillaries. Does anyone here recommend any kind of system cleaner that could help keep the DPF, EGR, Injectors, Turbo systems clean without damaging the engine or engine oil? |
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MGmike
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  Member No: #3151
Location: South Queensferry |
Okay, first up the Comma ASW gearbox oil is fine. I've used the same but you'll need to do about 3-4 changes to really flush the system through. The engine oil might not be the best for our engine but should be fine for one cycle. A quick google came up with this; C4 is a lower "SAPS" oil (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorous, Sulphur) specifically compatible with exhaust after-treatments such as DEF. C3 actually has better lubricity properties (because SAPS are a good thing extreme-pressure-wise), but may effect emissions. So, I would change it early (say 10k miles) and find some C1 or B3. I'll let others comment on cleaners for the various components as I've never used them. However, I will say that no cleaner on the market will help with EGR faults. The design and failure modes I have seen (on many occasions) are only fixed by removing and stripping the EGR and even then it could be an electrical failure. best of luck with getting the pull to the left sorted |
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Fraunie
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Member No: #3763
Location: Stockdorf |
Please don't use a C4-Oil! They can't put anything in that highly sensitive engine! At least the garage has to stick with the actual proper Citroen recommendation! And that is a C2-Oil C3 has a much better HTHS value, C4 isn't appropriate for this engine!!!! Forget all the discussion about the DPF: There are a lot more engine failures then DPF failures! Sorry for the exclamation points, but that is really annoying... In the German ACC-Forum there are 10 analysis sheets of different oils, everything else is just "guess-work" |
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Ranger12
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Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
Thanks MGmike and Fraunie, that is timely and well received advice, I think I will order the Total Quartz INEO ECS 5W-30 ACEA C2, but I still am unsure, on the one hand this is the recommended oil and on a highly sensitive engine I really only want to use the Citroen/PSA recommended oils, however, I am not sure if I even trust Citroen now as my local Citroen dealers recommend the C4 oil the garage I used put in. Given my experiences, I am most likely going to trust the advice here, and while so many opinions may be a little daunting, at least there is ample data, which while making my choice harder, certainly makes me better informed. I favour the oil the car came from the factory with over anything else, but if the newer oils do indeed have better characteristics, then I would be silly not to 'upgrade'. Given the mileage of my car (138k), and the fact that I don't really have a full service history with this car, I am only interested in using the very best of oils in the hope of getting the absolute best mileage from the engine (aren't we all?), so I don't mind if the oil is expensive, I just need it to be the clear winner (so to speak) and actually the best oil available for this engine. I will continue to research this as I have a bit of leeway, but having read up on the links you provided, it is clear to me I should adopt the extreme use servicing schedule and recommendations as my car is subject to a lot of short journeys so far (mainly because of lock down). I will also make sure that I take the car regularly for a good motorway run every week to offset the short trip damage. The gearbox oil will stay as what it is and I'll schedule the extra changes, but do you know what the best frequency is? I was told every 2000 miles, but considering I would like the box to be essentially filled with clean unmixed oil, I think 2000 miles is excessive and will just ensure that the oil remains 'dirty' with each change. Is it possible/advisable to perform the change, run the car say for an hour, then do another change, and repeat until the oil that I drain comes out as clean as it went in, then stop there? The engine oil will get replaced at the earliest opportunity, and from then on I'll replace it every 6000 miles (or yearly), which is what I do with my exceedingly high performance motorcycle. If I treat this engine like my bike engine (being that both have very high demands from their oils), then I hope I can keep this engine going until forced to junk it in favour of an electric set-up. Thank you all again for your valuable advice and support, I will find why my car pulls to the left (eventually) and fix it, and now my preeeecccccious is back I'm looking forward to getting to know her intimately. Just one other thing ... another reason I really don't trust garages, my car is now sporting a small scrape and dent on the R/H/R wheel arch, clear scratches on the L/H/R plastic sill trim (looks like trolley-jack damage), the R/H/F wing now sports light scrapes where the mechanic was working on it, multiple scrapes and scratches on my L/H/R flank including the chrome strip, and with clear rubbing marks on the flank going round the bend to the rear. It had just one minor scratch high on the L/H/R flank and one minor, tiny dent on the drivers door when I bought this, and for both you'd have to look quite hard to notice, now my car has visible scrapes! |
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Fraunie
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Member No: #3763
Location: Stockdorf |
I would recommend a gear box flushing every 70k to 90k miles. In this procedure the whole (!) oil will be replaced by fresh one, all 7 litres. I am doing that once a week (on different cars) with a device from "Motul", but there are other companies offering the same service. If you do a normal change you only get out about 3 to 4 litres and you would have to repeat that procedure several times to change all of it. Additionally the device is really cleaning the inner parts of your gearbox. The selection of engine oil is depending on your use of the car. If you are going high speed on motorway only you should use a thicker oil in general. But as I have mentioned before, the original oil the car was born with was a 5W40, not a 5W30... I have tested 4 different oils so far, 3 x 5W40 (B5, C3) and 5W50 (B5) all slightly different in their performance. But I am using the car only for long distance travel and I love driving fast (over 160 km/h) In general I think treating the engine like your high performance motorcycles is a very good idea! Never go over 2500 rpm if it is not warmed up... |
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Ranger12
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Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
Actually, now that you mention it, I did come across something before that said there was a pump available that could do the full Automatic box oil change in one go, I think it may have been in one of the downloaded guides. I would be very interested in getting my hands on one as I personally don't like the waste, expense, and inconvenience of doing multiple half-changes as the dilution method requires. Getting back on topic (I know my fault for going off in the first place), the last 4 wheel track that was done (16/11/20) shows ALL the settings in the green, even the front right unadjustable Castor is now just in the green, however the results always seem to favour (ever so slightly) settings which are just slightly bearing to the left. None of this has yet made the slightest difference to pulling left. Here is the last tracking sheet;-  |
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Ranger12
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Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
Oops somehow duplicated that, sorry. On a different note, I'll post a new thread about a new issue that has just come up (after picking the car up from the garage, which wasn't there before) it's regarding the Radiator. |
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cruiserphil
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  Member No: #38
Location: Celbridge |
Hello Ranger, On the oil question I have used Total Quartz INEO ECS 5W-30 ACEA C2 on both of our cars since it was recommended. The 2.7 we now own about 11 years and it is at 100000 miles. It does only occasional motorway driving, normally city or outer suburban driving. The only time it has shown any depollution errors is when I have forgotten to refit a sensor plug after work on the engine. It's still on it's original EGR's. So it has worked for me. Both cars get oil change every 10000 miles or annually. No issues with the 3.0HDi either at 93000 miles and same driving duty. Hope this helps, Best regards, Phil C. |
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Tjensen
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 Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
C2 is the right oil for the engine. Used on mine 3.0 all the time (now 199 000 km) No EGR or other problems. I have considered using a C1 or C4 oil (even "cleaner" than C2), but the advice on this forum was against it (C2 better for hydraulic valve lifters), C2 best compromise. I use the old C2 (5-30), but there is now also the new one (0-30). Thanks for much new information (arconell and fraunie!), learning all the time. Why is a garage not using the standard C2 oil ? And then the next difficult question: What can we do to reduce the risk of the dramatic low-end bearing catastrophe haunting some C6 engines ? Some oils better than others ? Changing oil pump (to new one with higher capacity) |
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arconell3
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Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar |
There are, in a way, many causes for worn out or seized con rod bearings. The only real cause however is invariably lack of lubrication. Oil dilution, lack of oil, clogged up oil lines, poor oil quality, and even a damaged/dented sump, etc. There are indeed (horror) stories blaming the (design of the) oil pump, i.e. it would wear out quickly and/or it wouldn't produce sufficient oil pressure. The fact is that there are scores of both 3.0 HDI and 2.7 HDI very high mileage engines, without any problems, including my 2 C6'es. So as far as I can tell, most of the reported engine damage cases are, in the end, caused by a variety of the causes mentioned, in other words by malfunctioning engine parts (EGR's, crankcase ventilation system, FAP, injector issues, timing belt issues, etc.). Sure enough, pretty much of that is down to poor or improper maintenance/repairs more than anything else. As for the oil pump, that itself of course needs proper lubrication, so if f.i. your engine oil is already heavily diluted, the pump also gets insufficient lubrication and will definitely wear out because of it... Regards, Robert |
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