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Dead C6 2.7 hdi 2007 |
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Ranger12
 
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  Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
Hi there, can anyone help diagnose what has gone wrong with my C6? Yesterday at around 6:15 pm, I was going around a roundabout (oblong one) at 18 mph, when I started to get what at first sounded like my CV joint clattering with a dry metallic clanking sound. Reducing the revs further it became apparent it was engine related as the clanking got quieter and reduced inline with revs. I went another 400 yards down the road with a mild clanking noise (while I tried to spy somewhere to stop the car), and as soon as I spotted a left turn with a safe place to stop and started to turn the clanking noise went very loud, then the engine died instantly, and I had to coast with very stiif steering to the kerbside. Up to this point there were no warnings from the onboard diagnostics, and no power loss that I could tell. Car had been running smoothly up to this point. I tried to restart the car 3 times, both the first and second attempts resulted in the engine turning a tiny bit but not over, and then nothing. The third attempt and subsequent attempts result in a clicking noise and no engine activity. I have plenty of power with a full-sized max amp battery which more than covers the recommendations. I have an idea of what it might be, but could do with some advice to work out if my assumption is correct. I don't want to say just yet as I don't want to prejudice the advice, but as I understand it, there's likely only one thing that can stop a running engine from rotating, and from restarting. If anyone knows what this is or thinks they know, I would be grateful for your input. If it is what I suspect, then someone should get sued, and no surprises for guessing who that might be in relation to this car. Sorry for the vagueness, but I'm trying to work out what it is for sure (without me stripping the engine), as to do so may impact any future claim I may need to make. Regards Ranger12 |
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MGmike
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    Member No: #3151
Location: South Queensferry |
hmm this does not sound good! First guess would be a timing belt pulley bolt has let go.. 2nd, it's dropped a valve that was rattling around in a cylinder! 3rd, a big end bearing has spun and crank eventually seized. watching with interest for the outcome... |
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Ranger12
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Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
Interesting, I think 2 & 3 would have given me some kind of warning of imminent failure, i.e loss of power felt while the engine was still running. It felt more like #1 as the engine response felt completely normal until it died - this seems to suggest that timing suddenly let go (not skipped a tooth or two then died), and there was no sense that the engine was getting tighter and about to sieze. That said I could be wrong, though why would a valve drop at low revs rather than higher revs. The first option is the second thing I thought it might be, so first I thought snapped timing belt, then that a tensioner came loose. Your thought that it might be a pulley bolt seems to fit what I experienced. If it is timing belt related, then I have to say they were replaced along with pulleys, ancilliory belts, and water pump just over 8000 miles ago which just happens to be 1 year and 3 days ago. Are there any professional services that can diagnose and write a report determining the cause? I ask as I cannot take it back to those who fitted the timing belt kit, as they would no doubt claim manufacturing defect in the belt, or lie if it pointed at them not fitting it properly in the first place, but if it is a pulley/tensioner that came loose, that would certainly suggest improper fitting (maybe not using a locking compound, or not tightening to the correct torque settings). If you were in my position and suspected that it was improper fittment of the timing belt kit (with water pump, pulleys and anciliary belts), what course/s of action would be prudent? I am of course eager to find out what it is, and quite capable, but worried that if I do anything to the car, it will be detrimental to any potential claim/s. |
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cruiserphil
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  Member No: #38
Location: Celbridge |
Hello Ranger, Very sorry to hear of what's happened. If you suspect timing belt you could remove the auxiliary belt tensioner. The main mounting inserts through a hole in the timing belt cover as it's bolted to the block. You could insert an endoscope camera through the hole to look inside at the belt and pulleys. This way you would not have to disturb the timing belt covers!! Best regards, Phil C. |
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Ranger12
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Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
Thank you, excellent idea. I have two of those devices, a hand held with screen, and one that plugs into my phone. I did think about it myself, but didn't have a clue as to where I could insert it, that is most helpful, I'll do that and report back on what I find with pictures. Thanks again. I'm hoping for a miracle, i.e. a bolt fell out and jammed the engine without damaging it, or with minimal, easy to repair damage, but maybe I'm stretching hope too far on this one - we'll see. |
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MGmike
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Member No: #3151
Location: South Queensferry |
I don't have any firsthand knowledge of any Consultants to do causal analysis but they are out there. TBH unless you're insured for the legal action it's likely to cost more than just fixing the car. If you are insured to take legal action, I would discuss with your legal team and get them to instruct the expert investigation. But as Phil says, an endoscope through the aux belt tensioner hole will confirm if the timing belt has let go. |
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Ranger12
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Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
I'll have to check with my insurance company about that, but if you hadn't mentioned it, I would not have thought of that, thank you. Using cruiserphil's suggestion should yield an answer to my problem, but I will check to see what services may be available to legally document the damage if it is the timing belt or parts last replaced. Maybe the AA or RAC offer such a service, I know you can get pre-purchase checks done by them if you're a member, maybe they also do a post-breakdown analysis. If it turns out it was badly fitted timing kit, then I will take legal action because they would have literally manged to screw every major component of this car from the day I first used them - but I'm jumping the gun a bit here, it may turn out to be something not related to their work. Whatever the outcome, I am keeping the car and will fix it myself, even if I have to get another engine - however, maybe now is the time to think of replacing the engine with an electric motor. I suspect that that would turn into quite a lengthy, complex and expensive endeavour, certainly more so than rebuilding the engine, but then to me this is a keeper. C6's are for life, not just for Christmas! Actually all things considered, owning a C6 is a bit like owning pets, I'm pretty sure the costs are not that dissimilar, nor the benefits - and who hasn't been drooled on by their C6? In some ways C6's are better than pets in that they don't go ape at the word 'Walkies', and it's never a burden to take the C6 out to stretch it's legs. |
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Tjensen
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 Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
I had a much milder experience: AUX-belt off and no generator, cooling, or servo. On a flatbed to my trusted Citroen garage (well-spent money !). They discovered that the bolt for the tensioner was destroyed/broken. They showed me the bolt and indicated that the reason was wrong torque when fastening. I sent a picture to the garage that 1000 km earlier had done the work and the two garages had a talk- In the end, my trusted garage fixed it and sent the bill to the other that had used the wrong fastening torque. This is 80 000 km ago. The key was documentation from my trusted garage. Pictures and documentation when you go into the engine are important, according to my experience. | ||
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Ranger12
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Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
Thank you Tjensen, in my experience here in the UK, I find garages very unwilling to do a report that might indicate errors on the part of other garages, even the one I was told about on this forum who are experts on the C6 and have a good reputation, when contacted, were only willing to do the work, but not willing to write a report or offer an opinion that would impugn anothers work. However, I think getting a report from a known qualified source would be worth the extra expense, particularly if there are date stamped photos/videos with meta-data. In my case if it turns out it was down to improper fitment, and a qualified source were to write a report to that effect, then I still feel the garage who did the work would ignore/deny/lie and basically, after wasting a lot of time, would then still need to be taken to court to pay for the repairs by another qualified source. I think I'll move to where you are, sounds like you have a good Citroen Garage there. I will document as much as I can, and if I can get a qualified report I'll do that too, after all, that report, whilst it might exonerate or damn, may still provide useful data about the state of the engine and what led up to the breakdown, which I can then use to hopefully prevent this from happening again. |
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cit-rotti
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Member No: #3753
Location: Bayern |
click on this "reading" - it explains why and when the screws have a life of their own - probably completely regardless of whether or not they have been loosened to change the tensioning of the belt ... and the workshop that has changed is of course never liable never for such belt independent damage. - Click Here - Greetings Wolfgang |
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Ranger12
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Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
That was quite informative even with google's translation on the video being quite off. The sound is similar but mine was more a rapid tapping which sounded like dry metal on dry metal, which got quieter when I dropped the revs, and louder if I increased the revs. On saying that though, the video was for a 407, and may sound different but be the same issue. My noises started straight after making the first right hand 90 degree bend at 18 mph around an oblong shaped roundabout, it came on very suddenly, but within a few seconds started getting louder, I backed off the throttle as I went around the second 90 degree right hand corner, then exited the roundabout on a 90 degree left turn onto a long 30mph limit downward sloping road, which enabled me to maintain around 25mph without the noise getting louder. At this point I was looking for somewhere to stop the car, and just as I made a left turn into a road with a parking space at around 5 mph, I accelerated slightly and the engine noise went very loud and then died. In fact now I've written this out, I recall two noises, the lightish dry metalic tapping which persisted, then a louder metalic clanking, which fits what you've brought my attention to. It seems to indicate that a bolt worked loose, then whatever it was supposed to hold came off, and that does seem consistent with a camwheel coming loose. Thank you all for your valuable input, I think you've all helped me identify the most likely cause, how to check it all without disturbing too much, and dependant on what the issue turns out to be, what I can and can't reasonably do. All in all, it's a lesson to me that the only way I can be sure that certain jobs are carried out to a high standard, are to do them myself and triple check every thing I do, and engaging more with the C6 community to be quadrauply sure. I think it comes down to the simple fact that if I've done the work, then I can be the only one to blame, and entropy isn't blameless, but it's deaf to everything it effects. I guess that this is what it means to own a rare car, and why garages either love to work on them or won't work on them, there is risk involved for them too, but how and where does one draw the line between what is reasonable to expect when you've paid for an intermediate service, cambelt and all related components to be changed, and a bolt/s that you could reasonably expect to be checked or changed (if this is a widely known issue with the 2.7 HDI engine) as part of that operation? Perhaps that's not reasonable to expect, maybe even the technicians originally trained to work on these cars would not have checked these, maybe because they reasonably didn't have reason to. I think the best thing for me to do now is find out the cause, the actual damage, what remedies are available to me based on the actual scenario, and then come back here to explore options and take advice on rebuilding what must be rebuilt. Thank you all. |
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David Hallworth
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  Member No: #90
Location: Glasgow |
Sorry to hear of your woes. Did you manage to get anywhere with it yet? |
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Ranger12
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Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
Sadly not yet, had a number of unfortunate events which have prevented me from even getting started on it. C6 broke down, then told I have to move, then my MC insurance Co went bust, then ... but I'm sure you don't need a detailed list of the almost supernatural timing and co-incidence of recent events. Suffice it to say, I ain't quittin' yet, no sireeee Bob! (sorry - Dave!). Car being moved tomorrow to new address, there I'll be able to get stuck in, in a couple of weeks that is (moving is such a trial). I bought a phone attachment that will enable me to work on the C6 whilst videoing hands free, so I don't forget what I did, and hopefully there will be shots/vids I could share here when I undoubtedly get stuck on something. I'm thinking worst case scenario for the engine, but hoping for some kind of repreive as I was doing 18mph and decelerating from that to turn left when it died. I haven't had any time to put towards the C6 since it died, but hopefully my new circumstances will permit me to get it sorted. I am also considering sending it across country to a specialist, but I'll see how much damage there is first and go from there. Thank you for asking. 
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Ranger12
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Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
Sorry for the delay in posting, got lots going on, head spinning etc., etc.,. So My 2007 C6 2.7 HDI Exclusive is officially dead, or beyond economical repair, and that's coming from B.L.Autos (who really seem to know their stuff), so it is now in storage (Awaiting future conversion to Electric). The diagnosis from B.L.Autos was that the crankshaft had snapped in two, in the middle. This is an apparent weakness on these 2.7 HDI engines. Whether the rear cam wheel bolt came loose was not ascertained (they did do the diagnosis for free, saving me around £400 in the process). I am wondering now if the rear cam bolt came out, and then jammed in, causing one end of the crank to experience being stopped, whilst the other end was still being driven, resulting in the crank failure, or if a big-end bearing seized due to oil dilution from deisel getting past the rings (I'd recently done a flush, and oil and filters change, using Castrol Magnatec Stop-Start 5W-30 C2 oil (Very low saps, and hours of research in checking and comparing with other oils, to make sure I covered the required specifications for the engine). I am not going to know the reason it failed until I have removed the engine, and stripped it down, which won't be for at least another year. Sad days ... but ... ... I now have a 2007 Citroen C6 2.2 HDI Manual Exclusive, with 137k+ under it's belt, in reasonably good condition. Some parts have actually come back to life with no interference from me, so I've called this one 'Christine'. One worry I have is that I tested the clutch and it worked well and 'bit' where I think it should, but it wasn't till I drove it 80 miles back to home that the clutch .... and I'll create a new post for that. |
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