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Engine tapping when hot |
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HiPOL
 
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  Member No: #2699
Location: Gorzów |
Hi guys. I`m new here looking for C6 enthusiasts and for some help  My C6 has 2.7 HDi engine which afaik is British product used in Land Rover and Jaguar, what makes me think this is a best place to ask about this engine issues. There is a common problem in these engines with oil pump. When engine is hot and it is tapping/clicking you need to replace oil pump and everything is back to normal. That`s what i did (at 130000 km). Problem was solved for 2-3 months. I used original part bought at dealer, new type of pump that replaced old type. After those 2-3 months tapping is back and its much louder than it used to be... I change oil every 15000 km, oil pan was cleared when i bough the car, also replaced sealing of suction rose cause it was broken. When engine is cold it sounds great - no additional sounds, after 30 minutes of driving it starts tapping. I checked oil pressure - and its all good, cold & warm. The only detail that i`ve found that caught my attention was a pitch play of oil pump on crankshaft. No idea if it is acceptable and how big is allowed, and most of all - if it can cause tapping ? I`m 99 % sure sound comes form oil pump. When i bought the car it was tapping a little when hot and in periodes (every 1-2 sec). I had spare engine with only 120000 km so i decided to his use oil pump, since i wasn`t sure pump is my problem. When i changed it the sound was much louder and started much faster, when engine wasn`t even very hot. So i decided to buy new pump, changed it and sound was gone. After 3 months it`s back and very loud. Sound comes form right front wheel niche. None of my friends know how to solve my problem. Nobody had such situation. Usually after replacing oil pump all sounds are gone. If you guys have any ideas or solutions - please share it. |
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321dave
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  Member No: #614
Location: Dublin |
Hi Hipol, sorry to hear of your problem. I amongst others also have a noisy 2.7. When I read your post it started me thinking could this be my problem as well. Apparently the oil pump issue was effecting Land Rovers in particular, and in what I've read it appears to be a cracked oil pump or fractured part that breaks away! Did you check the new pump for any signs of a crack? Would be strange for sure to have a problem like that after only 3mths. But then again engineered components have a way of supprising us all with being a bit to weak for the job they are supposed to do. Was your engine sound anything like this? - Click Here - |
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HiPOL
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Member No: #2699
Location: Gorzów |
Hi Dave, I didn`t check my new pump yet, cause i didn`t remove it form engine so far... I will do it soon, but gathering informations first . Oil pump is source of many problems in our cars. It is recomended by all specialists i know to change oil pump for new model, also check suction rose sealing - it`s very often broken and is reason of engine damage. Hard for me to respond to your YT video. I`ll record mine, catching sound from few differnt points (especially front right wheel niche) and compare it with yours. I am considering that my new pump can be broken but chances for this are pretty low don`t you think ? |
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321dave
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Member No: #614
Location: Dublin |
Hi Hipol, I found something today interesting that might be worth considering, but again I'm no expert on engine tolerances. It states. "Installing a new oil pump or a higher pressure pump won't help because the bearings have too great a leakage rate to hold the required pressure. Installing a higher volume oil pump can increase flow and regain a little lost pressure. But the underlying clearance problem will still be there, which will accelerate bearing noise, wear and fatigue". I found reference to the oil pump issue which states best to undertake a rebuild as well as installing a new oil pump because the clearances between the moving parts is no longer creating oil pressure and a new oil pump can accelerate the underlying issues even more. Might explain your current problem. We're you able to check any internal parts for the correct clearances? |
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gmerry
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 Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Hi, not sure that there have been ANY reports of oil pump fractures for front wheel drive Peugeot/Citroen installations of the 2.7 diesel: all reported problems are with the rear wheel drive Landrover installations. The short motor is not really designed to be rebuildable; there are no oversize bearing shells available. The reported bottom end problems are with conrod stretch (caused by over-revving) causing reduction in bearing pre-load and then rotation of the bearing shells, followed by oil starvation/crankshaft breakage. Dave, if you have a noisy engine, I would examine very carefully the injectors and glow plugs to make sure the piloted injection is working as intended. If the noise is mechanical rather than combustion, check out the tappets and timing chains. If at the end of the day, the engine is suffering general bearing wear, then its really reached the end of its economic life. Regards G |
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321dave
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Member No: #614
Location: Dublin |
Hi G, good points, I do have a glow plug issue still to fix. I didn't get the time to go a little further when I replaced the timing belt recently and install a new set I purchased, I am aware that the glow plug plays its part in keeping the clatter reduced particularly at startup with the 2.7. I think the tensioners on the cam shafts might be an issue as well, but it seems that issue can be attributed to a low oil pressure or potentional oil starvation problem in the heads? Hopefully not. |
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HiPOL
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Member No: #2699
Location: Gorzów |
@ Dave - i checked oil pressure using special manometer. It is OK. No bearings problem here. @ Gmerry - i read many forums searching for ideas. Also asked many specialists. Almost all of them reported oil pump to be source of problems in 2.7 HDi engines. First symptom is tapping, then it leads to blocking the pump and engine failure (bearings). It is even described as typical weak spot of this engine (at least here were i live). |
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gmerry
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Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Hi HiPol, very interested to learn what the actual oil pump problems are thought to be: do you have any references?. Also, are we talking about front wheel drive installations (Puegeot and Citroen) or rear wheel drive, especially Landrover with its large engine driven fan. Note, the cracked mounting boss (part of the oil pump casing) for the camshaft tensioner has only been reported for Landrovers, AFAIK. regards G |
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321dave
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Member No: #614
Location: Dublin |
Hi Hipol & G, I'd be interested in understanding what's potentially happening with the 2.7 engines regarding noise. They certainly should be a good bit quieter. The long Oil intervals are certainly dangerous to the engines reliability. |
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gmerry
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Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Hi Dave, not all the 2.7HDi are noisy nor do they all suffer from oil pump problems. My 2008 car has not had a particularly easy nor difficult life and not suffering from any of the above. The problem with a forum is that you get a biased sample. I would say that ultimately oil change and oil quality is down to the owner: I've changed the oil every 6 months since 2009. From ownership of Mitsubishi's many years ago, which pretty much all suffered from noisy tappets on the standard 30/40 and yearly oil changes, I would suggest that with more frequent changes and using the correct oil (perhaps also using a Forte Oil Flush), its possible to reverse any noisy / gummed up hydraulic tappets and get the engine back to a quieter state. Regards G |
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321dave
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Member No: #614
Location: Dublin |
Hi G, That's interesting. I use Forte as well. Well, I'm certainly getting ready to sort it out soon as it is annoying . Thanks for the tips regarding the oil flush. I've never had to do this before, but hopefully it can be reversed. |
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321dave
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Member No: #614
Location: Dublin |
Hi Hipol, You mentioned suction rose sealing? With the sump removed is it possible to check that? I happen to have a new sump purchased a few months back and new gasket to fit. It's replacing a badly corroded sump. Car already has a new undertryed fitted recently. Bad cracked undertray meant water got in at the sump. |
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321dave
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Member No: #614
Location: Dublin |
Hi Hipol, You mentioned suction rose sealing? With the sump removed In this previous post from another forum member, is the seal where the two bolts meet the engine or down further? - Click Here - |
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HiPOL
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Member No: #2699
Location: Gorzów |
Yes i was talking about the sealing (O-ring) where the two bolts meet the engine. | ||
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321dave
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Member No: #614
Location: Dublin |
Thanks Hipol, I'll check for that when I remove the sump soon. Any luck yourself with your returned engine noise? Wonder what has happened for the noise to come back again? | ||
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