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2.7 HDI engine oil diluted -> engine break down |
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czarlz
 
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  Member No: #3806
Location: Nijmegen |
Hi everyone, Can you list down all the reasons, you can think of, why the engine oil might become diluted in 2.7 HDI? In my case that was the reason of a serious engine break down while climbing the hill last week with a decent speed of 130km/h. Crankshaft completely sized, rod bearings gone. The car hardly ever saw traffic jams. It was mostly driven on motorways. The oil pump was new, engine oil (Motul 8100 5W40) replaced every 8000 km. This particular oil had 6000 km and there was 7.5 liters of it in the sump. Let me start with the most obvious reason: faulty injectors (leaking). This is something I will find out soon. Any other ideas, especially from the area of the FAP? Thanks. |
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Tjensen
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   Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
This oil is not C2 and PSA approved. Over time this might cause an extra load of dirt(SAPS) that will find its way to FAP, EGRs and Turbo system and cause problems. But the how and why this may lead to fuel dilution of oil is above my competence. Diluted oil is one of the reasons for this kind of breakdown. Both 2.7 and 3.0 has a weakness in bottom bearings. Your new oil pump and short change intervals should have protected you from this kind of accident (that we all fear!) | ||
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arconell3
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  Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar |
Very sorry to hear! What strikes me is: the Motul oil you mention does not meet the specs for this engine, both viscosity (5w30 is called for) but more importantly, it is not a "low Saps" oil, which is of great importance because of the specific way the PSA FAP filters and catalyzers work. Your suggestion of faulty injectors is therefore probably correct, as they are often the result of fouled up FAP filters and EGR valves. Have you had any exhaust system anomalies or warnings recently? Just as a reminder, whenever such warnings appear, NEVER ignore them, get them sorted out immediately. Ignoring such warnings may cost you dearly... See also this link: - Click Here - Regards, Robert |
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czarlz
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Member No: #3806
Location: Nijmegen |
So in terms of the oil I think I should be more specific. I used Motul 8100 X-clean. As far as I am concerned it meets all the requirements. It is ACEA C3, A3/B3, A4/B4 (mid SAPS) oil. Why not Total 5W30? According to C6 oil spec 5W30 is prohibited for engines with FAP. And now that is the thing - I have never had any issues with the exhaust system. I actually paid a lot of attention to how the car is used, i.e. no short trips, no unnecessary cold driving, etc. So for most of the time it was used on longer trips with a decent speed. EGRs have been disabled a long time ago. Recently the injectors have been replaced (unfortunately second hand), because the old ones were completely rubbish. The engine was working perfectly fine. One last thing I noticed some time ago when I was looking into FAP area with Lexia is that the estimated lifetime of the FAP was only ~20000 km. Poor engine! When it happened I thought the crankshaft has split into pieces but NO! It died because something else caused the oil dilution...  |
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Fraunie
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Member No: #3763
Location: Stockdorf |
I am sorry to hear that your engine broke down! Don't be confused by anyone who is saying that you have used the wrong oil, that is simply not true! The SAPS of an ACEA C3 oil is as low as the C2 standard. And even if it was more, what has the content of ash to do with oil-dilution? It is really important to check the oil-level manually and not only rely on the "Oil ok" in the dashboard when you are staring the engine. It will always say "Oil okay", even if you are having 7.5 litres in the engine... There is a very good video from an Italian Jaguar expert (same engine) about the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7M62upgFjM&feature=emb_logo You can use subtitles to understand it. I have tried four different oil in the meantime (5000 km per change) and get them analyzed at a special laboratory. I have tried only 5W40 and 5W50. There was never any dilution over 1.7 %. Believe me, the dilution has nothing to do with the sort of oil you are using... |
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czarlz
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Member No: #3806
Location: Nijmegen |
Fraunie wrote ... You can use subtitles to understand it. Ma non c'e' problema, capisco italiano! Thanks very much for this link. I have seen it once in the past and then could not find it anymore... I think the reasoning of some people could be that some 'more dirty' oils could potentially block the FAP and that in turn could result in some diesel being injected to burn it. I need to study now the way the whole FAP system works. FYI, I checked similar thing with my Alfa mechanic (I am actually an Alfaholic), and he said that with the DPF used on JTDM engines, he never faced a problem like that. Anyway, seems you have done some proper research on the topic by analyzing the oil. Good for you! I really like this approach. I am actually hoping to find that the problem was with injectors (leaking, or something). |
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Fraunie
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Member No: #3763
Location: Stockdorf |
Sulfat Ash of the Motul 5W40 8100: 0,8% (ACEA C3) Sulfat Ash of the Total Ineo ECS 5W30: 0,74% (ACEA C2) Huge difference, isn't it? |
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arconell3
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Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar |
czarlz wrote ... ...EGRs have been disabled a long time ago. Recently the injectors have been replaced (unfortunately second hand), because the old ones were completely rubbish. The engine was working perfectly fine.... I'm afraid that the above quote, probably with the oil quality as a complicit, is indeed the root cause of your troubles... EGR's are designed to lower the combustion temperatures, in fact quite significantly. Lower combustion temperatures reduce NOx Emissions. By blocking EGR valves, the combustion temperatures can easily reach values for which the engine has not been designed. As a result wear and tear of moving parts increases quite considerably, which also affects things like piston rings. I don't know who ever advised you to block the EGR's, even in such a way that you fooled the APK test (Dutch for MOT) but you may consider sueing them.. If you need a good solicitor in the Netherlands, you can contact me, just send me a PM. (I still carry a Dutch passport, 'though living in Germany for 20 odd years.) |
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Fraunie
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Member No: #3763
Location: Stockdorf |
By blocking EGR valves, the combustion temperatures can easily reach values for which the engine has not been designed. I have blocked my EGRs and have got a chip-tuning (and others too) and haven't noticed any increase of temperature. IMHO that is just your very personal theory... |
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arconell3
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Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar |
Fraunie wrote ... By blocking EGR valves, the combustion temperatures can easily reach values for which the engine has not been designed. I have blocked my EGRs and have got a chip-tuning (and others too) and haven't noticed any increase of temperature. IMHO that is just your very personal theory... Hi Fraunie, You'd better read up on what exactly EGR valves are really for.... Regards, Robert |
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Fraunie
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Member No: #3763
Location: Stockdorf |
How are you going to find out why your engine died? Any insights would be much appreciated! |
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czarlz
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Member No: #3806
Location: Nijmegen |
The EGRs were disabled (both physically and in software) because they are problematic. The man who did it said that I will keep on coming back to him with EGR issues. On one hand I understand what is the EGR's purpose and the fact that it lowers the combustion temperature for lower NOx emissions, but on the other hand I know many diesel owners who did the same and they never suffered any issue. I am not entirely sure if the higher temperature can play any significant role here. Anyway, they were disabled a long time ago. Since this time I have change the oil many times and there was no dilution. Something has happened only now. |
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Fraunie
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Member No: #3763
Location: Stockdorf |
A friend of mine has done the same 100000km ago and his C6 is running perfectly fine, no issues at all... I presume that one of the injectors is responsible. Anyway it would be great if you would let us know what you have found out... |
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arconell3
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Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar |
Well, engines die because of seized bearings. Which in turn means insufficient lubrication. In Czarlz' case, as he said, lubrication broke down because of oil dilution. When oil gets diluted with fuel to the extend that the lubrication of main and big end bearings breaks down, the dilution is usually 10% or more, depending on the oil quality. I.e. 10% dilution is a recipe for sudden death. That however doesn't mean that less than 10% dilution cannot cause a fatality. In this case, driving with blocked EGR's for such a long period, will definitely have caused increased wear and tear on bearings and piston rings. Combine that with the presence of too much Sulphur and Phosphorus in the lubricant, causing the formation of metal/sulphur and metal/phosphoric deposits, specifically on and around the injector orifices, negatively affecting the spray pattern of the injectors, turning the spray into jets and you've got yourself another perfect recipe for disaster... The problem is always that the deterioration of the effectiveness of lubrication is an exponential process, mostly going unnoticed for a long time. And because it is an exponetial process, once you become aware of it, it is invariably too late... There is plenty of scientific and technical literature on these issues available, in English, German and even in Dutch, some of it also via our website (see below). What you should remember is that modern diesel engine like the ones in our C6 are computer designed and don't have the build-in reserves anymore that the old, indestructible diesel engines had. Robert |
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czarlz
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Member No: #3806
Location: Nijmegen |
I think this is an interesting discussion and great inputs from all of you. Obviously I will let you know once I know something. I am extremely motivated to understand what precisely went wrong. The reason is simple: that was not the engine's fault, but some auxiliary equipment was responsible for that. It can easily kill another engine and I definitively want to avoid it. Robert, you mentioned some technical literature available, but I do not see any link? Were you referring to - Click Here - |
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