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Engine Oil? |
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gmerry
 
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   Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Hi Jensen, High HTHS is very old fashioned engined technology (like BMW) certainly not required with modern valve trains, piston rings, bearing materials and clearances - unless engine is motorsport application (and this is a red herring because engine would be rebuilt/modified). Wear problems are caused by out of specification (viscosity) oil, = excessive soot loadings for diesels especially those with EGR. Check out the ACEA specifications and the referenced industry laboratory and test engine protocols. Note that ACEA "C" specifications were upgraded in 2008 to increase anti-wear requirements. Note also that Noack tolerances are still pretty wide even for "C" oils hence good idea to limit service life. C2 is also specified by Renault and recommended by most Japanese manufacturers PS, a side benefit of the C2 and C1 specifications is that it causes the blenders to use a much better basestock, better engine protection all round not just the DPF |
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Tjensen
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 Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
I have noticed that some oils are labeled with "COMMA recommenst this product suited for applications requiring" and others are more direct "Mobil 1 ESP has the following builder approvals: " To make things even more diffucult few are mantioning the year of the standard (2204, 2007 or 2010) | ||
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gmerry
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Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Tjensen, if you consult the ACEA website, you will find the issue years and the validity of each issue and when claims against should be withdrawn. However, remember that this is a voluntary system and in fact there are blenders marketing lubes to withdrawn specifications (worst offender are some supermarket brands) so check carefully what you are getting. The claims such as "recommended for" are just marketing gush. The builder endorsements for PSA vehicles are worthless because the only brand they will ever endorse is Total. See attachment for Total Ineo First (0W-30). Total are making a C1 specification oil, recommended as an option for 2012 onwards C4 1.6Hdi (also complies with relevant Ford spec). Note that Total specifically mention ACEA 2010 standard. Regards G  Regards G |
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Tjensen
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Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
Gmerry. you make it feel without hope ! I am more in line with the slogan "The truth is out there". The PSA recommendation /approval mentioned is for MOBIL 1 ESP (and the same kind of words are used by many, but some of the cheap variants have more indirect wording. A few mention the year/version of C-claims, but most don't. | ||
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Nikolaj
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  Member No: #4047
Location: Roskilde |
From this and other posts, there seems to be general agreement on 5W-30 for viscosity, but then I stumbled over this from a 2005 tecnical manual covering C6 3.0 petrol and 2.7 diesel. Isn't all C6 2.7HDI FAP!?   |
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Tjensen
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Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
Yes, that's right.None of these oils can be used. The right ones are ASEA C2 certified (low SAPS). From TOTAL this would now be: Total Quartz Ineo ECS 5W-30 (PSA standard B71 2290). In 2005/6 the ASEA C2 standard was not easy to find, but now it is not problematic.Look for ASEA C2, 5-30 and PSA B71 2290 and the you are sure. There is also a new standard that PSA/Citroen/Total recommends: Total Quarz Ineo First, 0-30 (B71 2312) |
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Nikolaj
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Member No: #4047
Location: Roskilde |
Thanks, I just found that exact oil on a local webshop, at a very reasonable price. |
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Fraunie
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Member No: #3763
Location: Stockdorf |
Sorry Tjensen, but I don't agree with you. At the beginning of production (as mentioned above) a 5W40 (B3/B4) was explicitly (see sticker in the engine compartment) required for the 2.7 l Diesel Engine. PSA changed that recommendation in the following years to the ACEA C2 5W30 which is much thinner (and has a much lower HTHS). Many people hold especially this oil responsible for many cases of engine failures. The common opinion is that they changed the recommendation because of the goal to achieve lower overall consumption for their whole fleet of models... I am currently using the TOTAL 5W40 MC3 (ACEA C3) and will it have analyzed, as I did it before with the old Quartz 9000 (B3/B4) 5W40. Most importantly: Don't use any oil longer than 15000 km, better 10000 km.  |
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Tjensen
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Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
Thanks for updating. I am learning.... The information of early recommendation of a non-C2 oil for C6 (and other PSA cars) for particle filter was new to me. Maybe the C2 5W-30 was not established on the market in 2005 ? Too much "ash" and then problems with EGR system after some time would be my anxiety. I have only seen recommendation of low-ash ASEA C2. More important: If you are right about oil being a possible factor in engine crash, the new practice of recommending the even thinner 0-30 C2 must be dangerous for our engines !!! I think this new and thinner oil has been used on my car for the last 3 shifts (Citroen garage), Before that I used to bring my own oil, and my favorite was the Mobil 1 ESP C2/C3 5W-30. Maybe that would still be a good choice ? Or is it safer to move up to 5W-40 ? My engine has done 170 000 km and i really want to keep it much longer and if a better oil choice can help, I am listening... |
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Fraunie
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Member No: #3763
Location: Stockdorf |
The amount of "ash" is only relevant for the particle filter, IMHO it is negligible for the EGR valves. But: The particle filter is only a part of the exhaust system and not so expensive to replace compared to an engine loss. I am using the Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 in my Citroen C5 (180 Blue Hdi). It was recommended to me by oil experts in a German forum, called "oil-club". I think it is a very good oil, but probably not necessarily for the 2.7. Hdi. The question is, how is your driving profile. Do you drive a lot of short distances and the engine doesn't really get to the temperature it needs? Then it might happen, that the oil can be thinned by diesel, when the engine computer tries to clean the particle filter with the help of diesel after-burn... The advice is to check the level of engine oil once a week. If it is rising, change the oil asap. I am driving mine only long distance, my average is about 60 km/h over 5000 km. As you certainly know, there are a quite a few motorways ("Autobahn") in Germany without speed limit. I really like to go around 200 km/h for a longer time (if the traffic allows, sure) sometimes. The engine failures reported were mostly in these speed areas, therefore you shouldn't have that problem in Norway... But the most important advice is: Forget the "LongLife" oil change interval! There is a formula that says that each engine oil is getting worse after 180h of running time. Therefore you can easily calculate yourself when you have reached that mark. |
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Tjensen
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Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
Thanks for even more useful information ! I am driving more than 95 % long distance in Norway (70-110 km/t, more than 400km each trip) only occationally driving faster at the continent or in town. Changing oil every 10-15000 km. They are now using the new standard 0W-30 C2 (PSA standard B71 2312). The question is if I am (=the the engine is) safer with the original 5W-30 (The Mobil 1) or even a 5W-40 variant. |
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Fraunie
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Member No: #3763
Location: Stockdorf |
I just noticed that you have got a 3.0 engine, then I would use the Mobil 1 and definitely not the 0W30... | ||
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Tjensen
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Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
I agree, I have used the Mobil 1 series on all my cars since the 1970's ! If I should go for 5W-40 there is one oil called Specol Premium C 3 with PSA B71 2290 rating, but it is too cheap to be trusted ! | ||
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gmerry
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Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Hi, this is anecdotal for sure but I owned a C6 2.7HDi for 10 years and in that period carried out about 22 oil changes!!!. Regardless of miles or usage, it got changed every 6 months. The rationale being that if my miles were low, it was because during that period it was mostly cold around town running. The oil used was always 5w30 C2 specification, mostly Miller or Total. When sold, the engine ran as sweet as a when new, no tapping, knocking or rattle noises. I had EGR blockage and failure, so the low SAPS oil did not help with that, but no exhaust problems and the only engine related warning light was for a single high pressure drop problem across the diesel fuel filter. A side effect of the oil filter changes might have been failure of the gasket between the oil cooler and the block. This is because the oil filter is screwed on to the cooler and removing the filter applies force through the gasket. This resulted in a very annoying oil leak and it took me a while to track it down. Eventually I replaced the oil cooler assembly and gasket and this cured the oil leak. What I did do for about the last 4 years of ownership was to extract the oil through the dipstick using a Pela Vacuum Pump and as long as this is done with a hot engine, in my honest opinion there is no appreciable difference in the amount of old oil extracted. Of course with such frequent oil changes, there is never any sludge to worry about. PS, still have DV6C powered Citroen and that gets a 6 monthly oil change too. |
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Tjensen
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Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
I also had to change the oil filter/heat exchanger unit. A serious oil leak, but I do not know why it happened. |
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