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2.7 timing belt let go |
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Ciaran2
 
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  Member No: #3789
Location: . |
Hi guys, Apologies for posting from a duplicate account however my primary one is locked out and the password reset function doesn't appear to be working properly. Anyway, not been on here in a while, have meant to update various threads with the results of DPF problems etc, however currently have a slightly more pressing matter. I strongly suspect, the timing belt or one of the tensioners has failed on the 2.7HDI. The belt was replaced around 6 weeks and 1000 miles ago at 120K miles (for the second time, it was initially done at 100K in March 2017, but the job had to be repeated after the main dealer didn't bother their backsides replacing the crank and camshaft oil seals - £8 parts in a £600 job - and it began leaking oil from behind the crank pulley - thank you very much, Charles Hurst Citroen Belfast). Anyway, the belt, water pump and all tensioners etc were replaced again, with genuine Citroen parts, by a trusted independent garage, 6 weeks ago. Its been running very nicely and all was well until this afternoon, when having just joined an uphill section of the motorway, I was accelerating (in lane 1, quite fortunately as it turns out). I wasn't pushing it hard by any means, maybe 1/3 - 1/2 throttle, however as the car reached about 50Mph, there was a thud/bang, followed by a second of grumbling / rumbling noise. Just as I was thinking 'WTF was that?', believing I'd possibly hit / run over something, the display flashed up 'Engine oil pressure low - stop immediately'. Instinctively I began heading for the hard shoulder and felt the steering go heavy, the engine sort of bunny hopped, spluttered and died as I turned the wheel. With the car stationary I checked all the usual basics, oil level fine, no obvious debris around / under the engine, nothing out the exhaust / on the road, no visible oil leaks etc. I attempted to start it, and it cranked worringly too quickly with a cough as if attempting to fire every 4 or 5 strokes, but no go. I've just had it recovered and haven't yet been able to get at it to check the belt and other component condition, but would anyone concur this sounds like a failed or at least slipped belt? Which brings me neatly to my next question; what sort of damage are we likely talking about here? I believe its very much an interference engine, so is it just a question of how many valves have been bent / possible piston damage, broken cam shafts, rather than IF? Any similar experiences / thoughts / theories gratefully received!  Cheers Ciarán |
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Tjensen
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   Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
A bang and heavy steering could be a result of the auxillary belt jumping off , it will combine with a warning of no charging. If the bolt for the tensioner is fastened without checking torque after the belt job...... This happened to me after changing the timing belt, the garage took the costs. But the oil warning is more dramatic and may point to a disaster inside the engine. Good luck to you and keep us informed !! |
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Ciaran2
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Member No: #3789
Location: . |
Thanks Tjensen. Unfortunately the (newly changed) aux belt is still intact with no signs of slipping, seized pulleys or having jumped off. The tensioner mechanism on it looks Ok. It rotates freely when the engine attempts to crank, so unfortunately I think the issue is within the timing belt area. One other possibility I suppose is the separate high pressure diesel pump belt having failed, but I don't think so as the cranking of the engine is uneven and not sounding.. symmetrical I suppose is the best way I can describe it. The oil warning could well be something catastrophic but I'm hopeful its not and it was just as a result of the engine spluttering and dying mid-flow, I've had that a few times on the XMs when the engine has stalled (due to a blocked fuel filter), or failed to start. Of course, whos to know what knock on effect the sudden halting of oil circulation would have had on the turbos, as they'd have been on boost and spinning pretty well I would have thought, given the car was accelerating up a hill... but one disaster at a time I suppose I won't find out anymore until Wednesday or potentially Monday. Depending on the level of internal damage, it may be a case of looking for a donor engine and transplanting the ancillaries to that. In an ideal world I would strip and rebuild the heads etc with new components throughout but I don't have the facilities to do that at the moment so I guess we'll see... Cheers Ciarán |
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cruiserphil
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  Member No: #38
Location: Celbridge |
Hello Ciaran, Sorry to hear of your concerns. As regards a timing belt issue, it won't be clear until the covers are off and you can confirm that the timing marks line up (or not) to rule that out. Then perhaps the high pressure fuel pump has done a wobbly and is only providing insufficient fuel pressure to the injectors causing the engine to slowly stall and now fires insufficiently to start it? Hopefully the oil pressure message was a by product of the engine slowly shutting down as you suggested. Keep us informed if you can? Best regards, Phil C. |
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Ciaran2
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Member No: #3789
Location: . |
Thanks Phil. The cars since been picked up and unceremoniously deposited at the mechanics, will likely be Monday before the covers come off and the timing checked as you suggested. I'm hoping against hope that its just the diesel pump or its belt that's given up, but I don't know, it made quite a deep grumbling / grinding noise as it died, sounded pretty internal, but you never know. Interestingly, I noticed today a small oil stain where the car had been sitting for a few days after being recovered, not massive, about the circumference of the base of a coke can. May be completely unrelated coincidence or could be significant. Will of course update here as things progress. Cheers Ciarán |
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Tjensen
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Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
If you want to prepare for the worst, also check the net and this forum for "sudden death" of our engines. Not often, but enough cases that Land Rover/Jaguar issued some repair notes and some people got new engines. Something with faulty main bearings that can come out of position (and block oil ?). The 3.0 hdi engines also have incidents, said to be linked to "sport" position of gearshift and high revs. I am only a few % worried, our engines are robust. Most problems in the accessories (generator clutch, cooling system, hydraulic pump). | ||
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Ciaran2
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Member No: #3789
Location: . |
Hi guys, Thanks for all the responses. Well, the news on the engine is not good. It looks like its dropped a valve or similar. The timing gear and belt hadn't failed and all looks perfect, but when the engine is rotated by hand, its having a knock / bang and hard resistance at the top. That's as far as diagnosis has gone currently. I have an extended warranty on the car and they've agreed, in principal, to cover a portion of the repair cost, but are leaning towards the route of a recon engine rather than rebuilding this one, watch this space. I've never heard of any such top end issues being commonplace on these engines, so hopefully it was just a fluke / very bad luck, although if it were to happen again, not having the facilities to do any heavy work on it myself, I'd probably have to cut my losses and part with the car. At this stage, I've invested quite a few thousand in it over the past two years (not including the purchase price), the car has wanted for nothing and has been pre-emptively maintained with no expense spared, so it would be silly to let it go now (plus, I really don't want to), although I must admit, the possibility of the same thing happening again after doing all this is making me somewhat nervous. I'm trying to convince myself it was just very bad luck and lightening never strikes the same place twice, but hmmm.... Ciaran |
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cruiserphil
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Member No: #38
Location: Celbridge |
Hello Ciaran, Thanks for the update. Definitely an unusual one by the sound of it. Will there be any more investigation? Best regards, Phil C. |
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Ciaran2
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Member No: #3789
Location: . |
Cheers Phil, Yes there will certainly be a post mortem, I'm quite concerned as to how this happened / obviously keen to ensure there isn't a repeat. Besides that, the third party warranty provider want to have one of their engineers examine the engine to determine if it was 'sudden failure' rather than 'wear and tear', so once its out of the car, the heads will be pulled to see what exactly lies beneath and if the failure cause can be determined. I've managed to source a good engine from a rear-ended 407, which will hopefully be delivered in the next few days. While on that mission, I'm currently building a shortlist of bits and pieces that are quick and easy to replace while the engines out of the car, such as crank / camshaft oil seals, the timing belt (again), glowplugs, possibly both plastic thermostat tanks (does anyone have part numbers handy?), and now, the oil pump, after seeing THIS: - Click Here - Any other suggestions whilst I'm at it? Ciaran |
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MGmike
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 Member No: #3151
Location: South Queensferry |
Ciaran2 wrote ... Any other suggestions whilst I'm at it? Ciaran Yep, 1,small water pipes from the expansion tank to top hose and rad. About £10 each. they will break/crack when disturbed but might not show until sometime later (ask me how I know  ).2, Might as well change the heater pipe that runs along the inside of the nearside wing if you haven't already. 3, check the front and rear gearbox mounts for rubber separation. 4, unless your EGR valves are new(ish), strip and clean them. And finally... 5, depending on condition, the metal braided fuel return line from the injectors will be about ready to break up. I'm sure others will come up with a few more! |
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Ciaran2
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Member No: #3789
Location: . |
Thanks Mike, Had already done the coolant pipe about a year ago and protected the new one with generous coatings of grease, looks Ok - for now. Have ordered one of the water pipes - replaced the other a few weeks ago because of exactly what you said, and the fuel return hoses. Thanks for the tip on the gearbox mounts, will be looking at those when the engines out, which should be this week. EGR valves will be stripped and cleaned, although I'm debating blanking them off - albeit that carries the risk of more [%*^#@!] being dumped into the wonderful DPF - which is also coming off for a damn good clean out while everythings apart. Debating drilling a few holes in it to aid flow / reduce the liklihood of future blockages, but I'm wary of creating too much pressure differential and triggering warning message hysteria. Besides that, after researching some running problems on a Jag X-Type (pile of junk but that's another story) I bought as a temporary car, I came across this: - Click Here - relating to swirl valves, and am now debating removing them entirely from the replacement engine, but will probably start another thread about that... Cheers Ciaran |
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