Login   
C6owners :: Forums :: C6 Support :: The Garage

Suspension not working properly

Home   Forum Rules    Forum Help  Conversion Tools
   
Please Register to enjoy additional Member Benefits
Top Thanked Forum Posts: Today | Week | Month | Year | All time | Most Thanks Given: To member | By user
Author Post
M2dis   
Wed Apr 18 2018, 07:24pm
Joined: Mar 20 2018
Member No: #3475
Location: Tartu
Car is 2008 3.0 petrol. Problems started after the last service at my local citroen dealer, generator belt and all the break pads were changed also. I have been there back once already with the problem.
After the service, it took about 30 minutes of motor idle time for the hydraulic pump to kick in and raise the car, after this everything was OK until the car had been sitting overnight.
Went back to dealership, they checked car with lexia(no error codes), all the wires, sensors and the pump, all of them were good. They also topped up the LDS fluid and I let them swap the (10 years)old battery for Varta 574012068 E11 74AH/680A.

Now I have been driving with the car for a few weeks, things got better, but not as should be. Suspension now has been rising right away with the cold start, but if I drive straight to a shop for example, the pump won't kick in straight away, takes about 15 minutes of waiting with idle motor. After a longer drive haven't had this problem(with shorter distances after the drive, but the 15min scenario happened also on the next day). Don't really know what to think about this and have no-one to turn to as well here.

Dealership didn't have any other ideas what could cause this and there are no other garages in my area who knows anything about citroen hydraulics.
Tjensen   
Wed Apr 18 2018, 08:16pm
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
Are you sure the battery has the right Ah or more ? On the diesels this would be way too small and after a cold start it might not be up to the job of feeding the hydraulic pump if this also is a bit old and worn. With more driving/waiting and more heat you will have more power and a pump that is easier to turn ? Just a thought.
arconell3   
Sun Apr 22 2018, 08:23am
Joined: Jun 28 2012
Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar
M2dis wrote ...

..... They also topped up the LDS fluid and I let them swap the (10 years)old battery for Varta 574012068 E11 74AH/680A.

Now I have been driving with the car for a few weeks, things got better, but not as should be. Suspension now has been rising right away with the cold start, but if I drive straight to a shop for example, the pump won't kick in straight away, takes about 15 minutes of waiting with idle motor. After a longer drive haven't had this problem(with shorter distances after the drive, but the 15min scenario happened also on the next day). Don't really know what to think about this and have no-one to turn to as well here.

Dealership didn't have any other ideas what could cause this and there are no other garages in my area who knows anything about citroen hydraulics.


Why was LDS topped up? The only reason to top it up is after a leak has been found or after repairs on the hydraulic circuit. Too much LDS in a C6 will eventually always cause problems, even up to a ruptured reservoir.

If the car was lifted on a 2 column lift with its wheels hanging free and the filler cap of the LDS tank was not opened before lifting, try bleeding the LDS circuit. But check for leaks first. If there aren't any, check the LDS level after de system was depressurized with Diagbox and get rid of the overflowing LDS without it spilling over the BHI directly underneath the LDS tank.

Regards, Robert
www.c6-friends.nl
Website
M2dis   
Sun Apr 22 2018, 01:19pm
Joined: Mar 20 2018
Member No: #3475
Location: Tartu
Tjensen, I got a question about the charging system, shouldn't the charging system give enough voltage when motor is running idle to power up all of the electric parts? Including the hydraulic pump.
I measured the voltage with a cheapish multimeter and it was 14.20 with idle motor.
The battery itself should be OK for the car, Varta suggested it on its homepage, I already found information from this forum, that 100Ah 830A Varta SILVER H3 would be better, but I'd rather would like to be 100% sure that it is indeed the battery not the charging system itself(or anything else), since the problems started after the generator belt was swapped out

arconell3 - I don't have the tools available to do any of this, as I understand, even checking the LDS fluid level on C6 you need to hook the car up with somekind of dianostic tool.
I don't know why they added the fluid in the dealership, just have to trust them that it was running low and that they did everything by the book. They also checked all the wires and sensors, should have noticed any leaks during this(no oil stains under the car also).
arconell3   
Sun Apr 22 2018, 02:19pm
Joined: Jun 28 2012
Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar
Hi M2dis,

Yes, the use of the Citroen diagnostic tool, called Diagbox since 2009, before that it was called Lexia, is imperative when checking a large number of things on a C6. Also it is needed to depressurize the hydraulic circuit and therefore also when you want to check LDS level, since that has to be done in depressurized condition.
What you can check is if you see any LDS inside the reservoir. Just take the cap off and look inside, using a small torch. You shouldn't see any fluid. If you do, there is at least 1-1,5 litres too much in it.

I know a Cit dealership should know better, but with so few C6'es around they mostly rely on their knowledge of the other cars with hydropneumatics. Because only on a C6 you need to undo the cap before jacking it up and check the LDS in depressurized state....

Regards, Robert
Website
M2dis   
Sun Apr 22 2018, 04:03pm
Joined: Mar 20 2018
Member No: #3475
Location: Tartu
Hey arconell3,

- Click Here -
This is what the reservoir looks like, no fluid on the sieve but can see some under it. The cap was pretty loosely on it also(read from another thread that this was causing some problems for another user here, doubt that it will fix mine)
Tjensen   
Sun Apr 22 2018, 05:14pm
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
If the voltage is 14,2 on idle, and with the hydraulic motor (tries to) run, the battery is probably OK. The pump motor uses a lot of current when it is worn, and a small/weak battery will then go low in voltage.

But what are the practical problems now ? The car rises at start and no error messages from suspension ?
M2dis   
Sun Apr 22 2018, 06:02pm
Joined: Mar 20 2018
Member No: #3475
Location: Tartu
Tjensen wrote ...

If the voltage is 14,2 on idle, and with the hydraulic motor (tries to) run, the battery is probably OK. The pump motor uses a lot of current when it is worn, and a small/weak battery will then go low in voltage.

But what are the practical problems now ? The car rises at start and no error messages from suspension ?


Today morning for an example, fired up the car, it raised to normal height right away. I raised it to the max(10km/h state, raised as should) and dropped it to the lowest setting(10km/h). After this it took ~30 minutes for the pump to kick in and raise the car to default level. The pump didn't make any sound in this 30min timeframe, when I heard from it again, it raised the car to normal lvl. At the time I waited I didn't check the voltage, so I'm currently unsure if it was idle'ing at 14,2 or not, I'll keep the multimeter in the car and check the voltage next time it happens.
But when I checked the voltage in the evening, I checked it also when pump pumped the car from lowest to highest and voltage was still 14,2.

I have seen "suspension faulty" error only then when this mess started, apparently I started driving when the suspension wasn't in the right height and sensors did their work as they should, gave me an error. After this I've always paid attention that the ride height would be OK and never seen an error message again.

Edit// also, here is a picture of the post that I found about the battery in this forum: - Click Here - I've got none of the symptoms that has been pointed out in this post, only the hydraulics f'ing with me
arconell3   
Sun Apr 22 2018, 09:22pm
Joined: Jun 28 2012
Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar
Hi M2dis,

To me also, it seems your battery and its charging is perfectly OK. The LDS level is certainly not OK, it is too high, being just underneath the bottom of the funnel, as far as I can tell.
I would suggest you download the following documents from the technical section, under Suspension, in this forum:
- C6 draining, filling bleeding hydraulic suspension
- Depressurising the C6 hydraulic suspension
- C6 suspension height settings

Read them carefully and take them to your Cit workshop and ask them to do these checks and settings EXACTLY as is prescribed in the documents. If at all possible, stay there while the work is being done so as to make sure it is done properly. I know, you won't make any friends at the workshop, but at least you are sure the work has been carried out the way it should have been done in the first place.

Last but not least: When the hydraulic system is depressurised, the LDS reservoir will overflow. Make sure that the overflowing LDS doesn't fall on the BHI (sits directly underneath the reservoir) which contains the pump unit, and if it does, clean the BHI and pump unit thoroughly before letting the pump run again. (the battery has to be disconnected anyway before starting up the pump again, see the relevant document). Reason: LDS can penetrate into the BHI, fouling up the electronics inside. It is the most common cause for pump failures on a C6.
Good luck, Robert
Website
M2dis   
Thu Apr 26 2018, 07:00pm
Joined: Mar 20 2018
Member No: #3475
Location: Tartu
Thanks arconell3, visited the service today to change my winter tires to summer ones and talked to them about changing the LDS and re-setting the height afterwards. They don't think that this would fix it and think that the motor might be at the end of its life span, or they are just too ignorant and cannot be bothered Is it common that pump might "sometimes work, sometimes not" because of the wrong amount of LDS in the system?

Found a C6, 2,7 v6 hdi, near me with a little front bump - Click Here - nothing too bad. Will my petrol gulping car accept a diesel one if it turns out to be the pump/motor? I cannot think any reason why it shouldn't but you never know
Dave-Retired   
Fri Apr 27 2018, 08:03am

Joined: Oct 01 2009
Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland
M2dis wrote ...

Found a C6, 2,7 v6 hdi, near me with a little front bump - Click Here - nothing too bad. Will my petrol gulping car accept a diesel one if it turns out to be the pump/motor? I cannot think any reason why it shouldn't but you never know

Part numbers are very slightly different for the complete pump/motor assembly (which is all Citroen supply) but as you only need the actual motor and others have used one from a C5 there is every likely hood it will fit.
Website
arconell3   
Fri Apr 27 2018, 08:11am
Joined: Jun 28 2012
Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar
I very much doubt that in your case the hydraulic pump unit itself is faulty. From your description it would seem to me that when the pump does not kick in, it is because it thinks that the height of the car is already what it should be, i.e. in drive position instead of park position. That would indicate that the ride height is not correctly programmed, and probably off by some 2 cm or more. Also, yet another reason for the pump not kicking in could be air bubbles in the system, i.e. the system needs bleeding!

Your workshop may not have realized this, but it might explain the "topping up" they did, thinking that the problem was a lack of LDS. What they should realize is that LDS doesn't evaporate, if it gets lost, its because of a leak somewhere. An LDS leak is visible, and needs to be repaired before topping up.

A defective pump, mostly caused by ingress of LDS into the electronics, also works intermittently but when it doesn't work it always blows the pump fuse, a 40 Amp Maxi fuse, which is not the case on your car.

Ps: yours has a petrol engine, the diesel is heavier. Which probably means the the programming of the other pump is different from yours and therefore they should not be exchanged.

Regards, Robert
Website
2 User said Thank You to arconell3 for this Post :
 321dave (27 Apr : 09:28) , M2dis (30 Apr : 16:39)
vaho   
Fri Apr 27 2018, 11:36am
Joined: Jun 25 2015
Member No: #2228
Location: Tallinn
Tervitus!
I do not think that the pump is to blame either. It either works or does not and blows the fuse. Considering the erratic behaviour I would check the contacts of the pump first, maybe there is some corrosion or poor contact or maybe the guys at the workshop spilled some LDS onto the pump, we all know how incompetent they are. I know it is too easy but does not take much to check.
M2dis   
Sat Apr 28 2018, 01:48am
Joined: Mar 20 2018
Member No: #3475
Location: Tartu
Thanks for the contacts suggestion, I think that that is where my problem is





one rubber tube has broken from the socket that it is connected(socket goes to the pump motor), when the pump didn't do jack's [%*^#@!] and when I fiddeled with the wire, pump started up again and worked as supposed. I guess that at the service they didn't notice/check it.

Gonna go to the dealership again on Monday and going to ask if they can swap/repair this or if i have to find the new wires myself

And Tere Vaho, great to see another estonian here, not much C6's here :P
1 User said Thank You to M2dis for this Post :
 cruiserphil (01 May : 09:21)
M2dis   
Wed May 02 2018, 07:43pm
Joined: Mar 20 2018
Member No: #3475
Location: Tartu
Well, this wasn't the issue, the voltage is ok in the sockets.
One thing I have noticed that when I knocked on the pump motor after last two cold starts, the pump started working. After driving for a while and trying to raise the car it does nothing, knocking on the pump motor when everything under the bonnet is warm haven't given any success as well.
It looks like it has gotten worse since everything worked 2-3 weeks ago after a longer drive.

Edit// Another observation from tonight, when I had my bonnet up and I turned ignition on, I heard little whinging noise, it came from the pump, lasted about 5-6 seconds, also couple of quiet clicks. When I rocked one of the front side a little the noise started up again, as if the pump wanted to level the car but it didn't kick in.
Go to page       >>   

Jump:     Back to top

User Colour Key:
Head Administrator, Administrator, C6 owner, Technical Expert, C6 Premier Discount Club