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Tjensen   
Fri Nov 03 2017, 01:00pm
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
Would it help to use C1 or C4 oil in place of the recommended C2 ? They are both even lower in SAPS and the C4 (Renault specified) is more modern. C1 is recommended when the same engine is used in Jaguars (?). The 3.0 has more modern and more expensive EGRs. see below:

"The new engine offers a new Exhaust Gas Circulation (EGR) system in which the thermal capability of the fuel/water exchanger is improved by 40%. It comprises electric blades as well as a pneumatic control of by-pass valve both controlled by the engine control unit.
With a cold engine, the by-pass allows circulation through the exchanger, to limit the condensation of soot caused by the combustion and therefore the unburnt hydrocarbon emissions, and allows a more rapid increase in engine temperature and reduced combustion noise and overall improvement.
With a hot engine, the by-pass is closed and the exhaust gas crosses the exchanger with increased power, thus offering a net advantage in terms of reduced consumption and emission of NOx."
vaho   
Fri Nov 03 2017, 01:10pm
Joined: Jun 25 2015
Member No: #2228
Location: Tallinn
Dave-Retired wrote ...







I can assure that all the valves, operational or not, are looking the same. I removed one after 100 km-s and it was covered with black soot. The exhaust gases contain it so much that it is absolutely normal. The valve does not have to be stuck open.
1 User said Thank You to vaho for this Post :
 cruiserphil (06 Nov : 10:05)
vaho   
Fri Nov 03 2017, 01:42pm
Joined: Jun 25 2015
Member No: #2228
Location: Tallinn
About the oils to use. Found this information:

The categories within the C class are devided along SAPS limits and along HTHS viscosities. C1 and C4 are low-SAPS oils, while C2 and C3 are mid-SAPS oils. On the other hand C1 and C2 oils have lower HTHS viscosities, while C3 and C4 oils have higher HTHS viscosities. The C5 category that has been newly introduced in the ACEA 2016 sequences has even lower limit for HTHS vicsosity. In order for an oil to meet this specification it must be a mid-SAPS oil and its HTHS viscosity has to be between 2.6 and 2.9 mPa*s.

Note: These Oils will increase the DPF/GPF and TWC life and maintain the Vehicle’s Fuel Economy.
Warning: Some of these Categories may be unsuitable for use in certain Engine Types – consult the vehicle- OEM’s owner’s manual/handbook in case of doubt.

ACEA C1 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Lowest SAPS-Level, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable of using Low Viscosity Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 mPa*s.

ACEA C2 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Mid SAPS-Level, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable of using Low Viscosity Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 mPa*s.

ACEA C3 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Mid SAPS-Level, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable of using Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s.

ACEA C4 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Low SAPS-Level, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable of using Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s.

ACEA C5 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Mid SAPS-Level, for further improved Fuel Economy, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable and OEM-approved for use of Low Viscosity Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.6 mPa*s.


So these oils are different by category not better or worse between each other. I use Mobil 1 ESP Formula and previously used Total Quartz Ineo ECS. Mobil was recommended by our local Citroen dealer but who knows.
2 User said Thank You to vaho for this Post :
 Tjensen (04 Nov : 00:33) , cruiserphil (06 Nov : 10:05)
Dave-Retired   
Fri Nov 03 2017, 02:44pm

Joined: Oct 01 2009
Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland
vaho wrote ...

The valve actually has a return spring, it is in the actuator housing on the contact plate side (grey plastic housing). It is not very strong though so it is possible it can not move the valve to closed position when the mechanical side is stuck do to the soot.
If you move the fork (contact plate side attached) by hand you should feel that it moves against the spring and returns - that is of course in case the actuator itself is not stuck or the spring is not broken.


Just checked the one that was removed yesterday and the fork just spins around freely in either direction with zero resistance, so from what you indicate vaho, it seems like it is the actuator that has actually failed internally on that EGR.
Website
1 User said Thank You to Dave-Retired for this Post :
 cruiserphil (06 Nov : 10:06)
gmerry   
Fri Nov 03 2017, 02:49pm
Joined: Dec 11 2009
Member No: #21
Location: Scotland
Vaho, when you say soot, I found that even upstream in this part of the EGR circuit, some oil can be found so deposits are sticky.

Pretty sure as Dave has already stated, that problem with EGR valves is not even down to fouling, but just the electromechanical design of the actuator side.

regards

PS, on your other musings regarding C spec for the low SAPS rating, I've been down the same route and always stuck with the C2 balance of properties. Happy for someone else to be the rolling laboratory!!!!
1 User said Thank You to gmerry for this Post :
 cruiserphil (06 Nov : 10:06)
Dave-Retired   
Sat Nov 04 2017, 11:33am

Joined: Oct 01 2009
Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland
vaho wrote ...

If you move the fork (contact plate side attached) by hand you should feel that it moves against the spring and returns - that is of course in case the actuator itself is not stuck or the spring is not broken.


Done some 'Destructive' investigation on the actuator section today and there is no return spring. It's basically a magnet at the connector end and a large copper wire coil.
Website
1 User said Thank You to Dave-Retired for this Post :
 cruiserphil (06 Nov : 10:06)
vaho   
Sat Nov 04 2017, 04:48pm
Joined: Jun 25 2015
Member No: #2228
Location: Tallinn
Yes, actuator itself has no spring, it is in contact plate housing (grey plastic part). The actuator shaft goes into the housing and when you screw it on it limits the movement of the actuator if you move it by hand from the fork side against the spring.
1 User said Thank You to vaho for this Post :
 cruiserphil (06 Nov : 10:07)
Dave-Retired   
Sat Nov 04 2017, 08:02pm

Joined: Oct 01 2009
Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland
vaho wrote ...

Yes, actuator itself has no spring, it is in contact plate housing (grey plastic part). The actuator shaft goes into the housing and when you screw it on it limits the movement of the actuator if you move it by hand from the fork side against the spring.

Ah, I misunderstood your previous comment. Your correct there is a 'spring' inside the end cap which works on the shaft itself, however it doesn't feel anything like powerful enough to default the valve to closed unless everything is scrupulously clean.
Website
1 User said Thank You to Dave-Retired for this Post :
 cruiserphil (06 Nov : 10:07)
cruiserphil   
Mon Nov 06 2017, 10:08am

Joined: Jan 24 2010
Member No: #38
Location: Celbridge
Great posts and discussion lads. Many thanks!

Best regards,

Phil C.
Dave-Retired   
Wed Jan 10 2018, 03:40pm

Joined: Oct 01 2009
Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland
As we are off to France and Italy later this year and the C6 is now 10 years old (from the ORGA number it was a 2007 build) but has only done 102,483 miles (162,925klms) I decided to bite the bullet and have the timing belt and water pump changed.

Was going to go to BL Autos but after factoring in the distance (fuel) time, overnight stays or train journeys X 2 decided to get it done locally at CIT dealers Wingrove in Wallsend.

Total cost including a complete visual and quality check plus a brake fluid change (was worth doing that as the brakes are better) £767.87.....

I did initially query Citroen Fixed Price Repairs at circa £330.00 but was told that was the timing belt only and did not include tensioners or the water pump obviously......

However I got a free car wash and interior vacuum

I was told though that the technician booked 13 hours work on the car as he had to carry out some repairs to the swirl pipes which had gone hard and brittle. However I wasn't charged for the additional time and I paid the original estimate for the work so a big 5* to Wingrove.

One worrying fact that came out during a discussion on the C6 with service department was that they scrapped a C6 last year as the front wiring harness was beyond repair and there was no replacement available....
Website
mixolydian   
Wed Jan 10 2018, 06:05pm
Joined: Jan 03 2018
Member No: #3382
Location: South
Dave - did they give any indication of why the harness was beyond repair? I'm curious as to whether it was due the complexity of the harness and the implied (likely vast) amount of time required to fix it (without a replacement being available), or if there was a technical reason such as availability of multiplugs or not being able to splice into the loom without upsetting the many and varied computers in the car.

I've had problems with door harnesses on other cars being very sensitive and in-situ fixes becoming diabolically complicated due to subtle changes in resistance and so forth. In any case, it's a real shame for whomever the car had belonged.
Dave-Retired   
Wed Jan 10 2018, 06:12pm

Joined: Oct 01 2009
Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland
mixolydian wrote ...

Dave - did they give any indication of why the harness was beyond repair?

I'm afraid not other than 'it was in terrible condition' and even if they could have found one it would have been a £4,000+ job so beyond economic repair.
Website
mixolydian   
Wed Jan 10 2018, 06:21pm
Joined: Jan 03 2018
Member No: #3382
Location: South
That's more than a little scary... thanks for the update though.

In other, more positive news, I got stuck in horrendous traffic on my way in to work today. One of those situations in which every road is blocked and more 'minor' accidents happen as a consequence of the original disruption. In any case, I am very pleased to say that despite over 2 1/2 hours or stationary / start-stop faffing about, the C6 was perfect and didn't miss a beat. When I finally got to work, I felt fresh as a daisy (though in need of coffee). If nothing else I finally got around to ripping some CDs to the Jukebox - now there's productivity.
2 User said Thank You to mixolydian for this Post :
 cruiserphil (6 Days ago) , e3steve (5 Days ago)
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