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More C6 issues. Wheel bearing? |
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FreakyFrenchFan
 
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   Member No: #2057
Location: Bicester |
Left work last night. Noticed a clonking when turning the wheel. Despite this the steering appeared to operate accurately. Once out on the motorway I overtake a truck and the steering goes haywire, feeling like a cross between tram lining and aquaplaning. A seriously ass clenching moment. I pull into the hard shoulder and immediately check the wheel nuts on the N/S/F wheel as my first thought is that the wheel is working loose as the clonking comes from that side. The wheel nuts are tight. As I'm just five miles from home I decided to drive along the hard shoulder very slowly, with hazards on. Finally I get to my local garage and find I also have a rear slow puncture. Probably picked up from some [%*^#@!] in the hard shoulder. This morning my mechanic rings me and his first words are "your lucky to be alive". He then goes on to say that there has been a failure/disintegration of a lower roller bearing! So I have that and a new tyre to buy now. Oh the joys of C6 ownership. | ||
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gmerry
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  Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Hi FreakyFrenchFan, Glad that you survived the suspension joint incident. Perhaps best to keep the tyre pressure monitoring system activated and maintained. I recall that you had a spell of suspension warnings appearing, I'm now wondering if excessive movement in the FRIP joint was in hindsight triggering these. If you have read any of the archives, you will know that water ingress into the FRIP joint can lead to corrosion and eventually to premature failure. Normally visual inspection at service time will catch this before failure due to rust seepage being visible at the joint. Can you say who performed the last annual service on the car (or when the last MOT was performed)? Note that IMHO, since 2011 (along with Speedfix) I have been suggesting that these lower joints need a grease point fitted/used and that this will totally cure the problem. So if you want to prevent repeat a reoccurrence of this, I know you will get your mechanics to fit a grease point to the replacement FRIP joint. Lastly, any chance of modifying your avatar? regards G |
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arconell3
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   Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar |
This is a bit confusing. FFF says his garage spoke of a disintegrated roller bearing, which would implicate the wheel bearing. That indeed is a roller bearing. GM speaks of the FRIP bearing, i.e. the lower ball joint. These are two different things. (Front) wheel bearings can fail, but normally it takes a long while between that bearing making such a racket, that unless the driver is completely deaf, he'd be calling his garagist or the RAC in blind panic, and that bearing failing critically (disintegration and as a result an almost unsteerable/undriveable car). As for the FRIP joints, all pre-2008 cars have a ball joint with a, let's say, substandard protection against dirt and moisture. These ball joints last an average of 40-50.000 miles. On newer cars new types of FRIP joints were introduced which (can) last a lifetime under normal conditions. Trouble is that these new joints cannot be mounted on the earlier cars without also replacing the yoke to which they are fitted. There again, a ball joint starting to fail, i.e. developing play, a: makes very unpleasant noises, b: causes the steering wheel to be off centre on a straight road and c: causes play on the steering wheel. All of that recognizably so in an early stage, i.e. way before it becomes critical. All of which therefore leaving me somewhat puzzled as to what really happend to FFF's car. Reagrds, Robert |
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cruiserphil
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  Member No: #38
Location: Celbridge |
FFF, I agree with G and Robert's senrtiments. As regards the FRIP joint, I let one go too far before replacing but the noise was horrendous when turning and the wheel ended up at a visible angle to the car. Even then there was no risk of it letting go! Glad nothing serious happened! Best regards, Phil C. |
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gmerry
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Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Hi Robert, some peculiar things happen with the English language - I interpreted lower to mean the "bottom" swivel, normally a ball joint but as we know, a FRIP for these cars. Mechanics would again using normal English, just describe these as roller bearings, hence the chance of alternatively interpreting this as a wheel bearing failure. On the life of the FRIP joints, mine originally failed at 33k miles, not even 3 years of use. Must have been the extremely cold and hence salty gritted winters we had back then. My replacement with grease packing, absolutely solid. regards G |
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FreakyFrenchFan
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Member No: #2057
Location: Bicester |
Just to clarify, my mechanic described the faulty part as a lower roller bearing but after asking him what this is he said that it's actually a lower ball joint AKA a FRIP joint. He said that upon examination with the cars weight off the wheel there was a huge amount of play in the joint, about an inch and a half, and that the wheel was wobbling about all over the place! No mention was made at the last MOT in January about any play in the lower ball joint and I only noticed a slight difference in the cars ability to absorb bumps/pot holes about two weeks ago. So this very dangerous problem appears to of developed very quickly. Anyway it's all being fixed today. Total cost including a new tyre..£330!!!! I have checked the price of a FRIP joint on eBay and it's amazing how much their price varies. From £15 all the way up to £100!! |
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gmerry
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Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
I have checked the price of a FRIP joint on eB$y and it's amazing how much their price varies. From £15 all the way up to £100!! OK, Eb%y is NOT necessarily a suitable place to purchase safety critical suspension components! Does the poster imagine that the £15 part is even remotely like the original in terms of materials, form, locking interface with the rest of the suspension, kinematic degrees of freedon? What did the previous owner fit (a piece of eb%y rubbish?) What exactly is FFF's mechanic now fitting? Note, I purchased some of these so called replacement parts and totally condemned them for fitment to the C6: they were OK as part of a lightly used winch block but that was about the limit of their "fit for purpose". |
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arconell3
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Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar |
@ FFF & GMerry, thanks for clarifying, and I totally agree with GMerry, DON'T EVER experiment with cheaper parts when these parts are safety critical!! Even though the OEM FRIP joints that fit the pre 2008 cars are not great quality, and as a result need to be replaced fairly regularly, at least they don't disintegrate. Regards, Robert |
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furriegurrie
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Member No: #2448
Location: Roosendaal |
I've been advised by a friend of mine who works as service manager at Citroën to replace my hubs with the newer design for my 2006 car when the frip fails. The complete hub with wheel bearing etc is not that expensive, about 160 euro (with discount). But even without discount it might be worth considering depending on the milage of your C6. A new wheel bearing is definately nice to have too... | ||
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cruiserphil
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Member No: #38
Location: Celbridge |
FFF, Good advice as the complete hubs are good value compared with the price of a FRIP joint alone. The hub comes with the joint fitted. Also if there was that much play the spigot on the existing hub may be damaged also. The sudden change in condition of your joint may have been due to the inner race that fits on the hub spigot disintegrating. What happened ours was that there was play for several weeks and then it just went very bad. The inner race disintegrating magnified the slackness. To give you comfort, the spigot is substantial and with the hub arrangement cannot escape from the joint body and when it gets that bad cannot escape your notice, as it didn't for you! Best regards, Phil C. |
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321dave
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Member No: #614
Location: Dublin |
Hi Phil, that very interesting about the steering rack. last year i rebuild the front suspension and installed the newer hubs and i think i have a strange rattle or reverb coming from the driver side front when i go over speed bumps as well. I'll have a closer look next week. | ||
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gmerry
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Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Mine might be different. I don't get any rattle over speed bumps, only ever happens at one particular car park which has maybe a 5mm lip on the drainage channel. The car did it from 1 year old, and has never got any worse in 7 years. Back to the FRIP joint and water ingress protection: mine's recorded on the DVLS database as a 2008 car but was built in 2007 if one goes on the ORGA so must have had the original design of joint seal. regards G |
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FreakyFrenchFan
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Member No: #2057
Location: Bicester |
For reference the bottom ball joint/FRIP joint has been replaced with an SKF item. The total cost to supply and fit this cost £142. I was shown the old ball joint and what should of been a sealed end was full of grease and bearings. Lastly I saw what caused the puncture. It was a shard of wheel balancing weight. I think the hard shoulders of motorways should be road swept regularly as it would appear from my experience that they are littered with debris. It's kind of ironic when you pull into the hard shoulder with a problem and get another one. |
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Tjensen
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 Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
No language problems here: There is a roller bearing inside the rather advanced FRIP joints, developed by SKF for the PSA group. And yes, there are some out there at ebay that is a quite simplified design that also will place forces and loads in wrong places in the suspension. Water coming into this special vertical design is the source of the problem. Lucky that you could drive carefully home and that it did non come apart at high speed. The XM had a problem with the fasting nut for the lower ball, needing extreme fastening torque. If that was not done, it would work loose and then the front wheel fell of the low fixing pont with quite dramatic effect. Happened to me (at slow speed) | ||
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gmerry
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Member No: #21
Location: Scotland |
Hi Tjensen, yes, definitely not a ball joint! The FRIP joint is based on a unique and very successful industrial bearing, the CARB bearing. - Click Here - Their USP (Unique Selling Point) is that they combine all the kinematic advantages of a self aligning spherical roller bearing, have axial endfloat and great radial packaging just like a needle roller. The only downside on the PSA application with the FRIP bearing is that they must be packed with grease to avoid water ingress. As an ex mechanical engineer, I had to struggle with bearing design situations where a CARB would have been ideal (eg any large cantilevered hydraulic pump or turbine, that does not use rotordynamic bearings). On my classic car, I still have to adjust the taper roller bearings on the front wheels and leave a generous backoff (end float) to allow for thermal expansion. Obviously that was designed decades before the CARB. Overall, a great solution! |
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