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C6 Locking Wheel Nuts
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gmerry   
Wed Dec 23 2009, 08:54am
Joined: Dec 11 2009
Member No: #21
Location: Scotland
 C6 Wheel Bolts by appearance look identical to C4. A trip to the parts man confirmed that they are identical, part number 5405.67. Cost is about £1 each. Of course the C6 uses 4 off bolts, the C6 5 off bolts per wheel.

Whats the reason for the thread? Well Citroen C4 locking wheels bolts have been known to shear when attempts are made to remove. Either the pins in the tool or the dimple holes in the stud shear and allow the tool to cam out of the holes. As well as good practice (be very fussy about not allowing garages or tyre shops to over-tighten, support the spanner to ensure torque only on stud, apply axial force when using tool), consideration should be given to replacing the locking wheel bolts with plain non locking items.

Owners should consider whether they want the risk of a problem turning into a drama, eg in the event that a wheel needs to be changed on the roadside. This of course needs to be weighed up against the insurance issues if wheels were indeed stolen (Is there a large 2nd hand market for C6 alloys?). The design of the locking bolt ensures that it cannot be removed by the old standby method of hammering on an under-sized socket: they deliberately have a weak shear ring on the outer portion of the bolt.

For myself, problem is not theoretical. 3 locking bolts were removed OK. On the 4th, using the same careful technique, struck a problem. Due no doubt to over zealous previous tightening.

Regards

G
C6Dave   
Wed Dec 23 2009, 02:38pm

Joined: Oct 01 2009
Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland
 They are known to be 'Soft' as you say on the C4 and are dual fitments for the alloys and steel spare

You could simply replace the locking bolts only with another set from a car parts or wheel supplier and retain the originals in case a wheel needs to be changed or buy 4 normal bolts as well to use

I had no problem with mine on Monday, but had an issue getting the wheel itself off the hub (looks like they have been on 3 years since the car was built) as the alloy 'bonds' to the steel via a chemical reaction

It would be wise to take all 4 wheels off, clean the bore and hub and apply a slight smear of 'copper slip' to ensure if you do get a roadside puncture, you can replace it with the spare
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gmerry   
Sat Dec 26 2009, 08:15pm
Joined: Dec 11 2009
Member No: #21
Location: Scotland
 Attached are instructions and photos showing method for locking wheel bolt removal in controlled way, with no damage to alloy wheel. (handy in case the car cannot be taken to a dealer etc)
C6Dave   
Sat Dec 26 2009, 11:26pm

Joined: Oct 01 2009
Member No: #1
Location: Northumberland
 Thanks for that, lets hope we never need to use it
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michaelb   
Sun Dec 27 2009, 08:03pm
Joined: Nov 17 2009
Member No: #14
Location: London
gmerry wrote ...

Attached are instructions and photos showing method for locking wheel bolt removal in controlled way, with no damage to alloy wheel. (handy in case the car cannot be taken to a dealer etc)






Holy cow. I hope I never have to do that!

Interesting post. Tnx.
Owen Snell   
Mon Mar 01 2010, 09:43pm
Joined: Feb 18 2010
Member No: #58
C6Dave wrote ...
.....I had no problem with mine on Monday, but had an issue getting the wheel itself off the hub (looks like they have been on 3 years since the car was built) as the alloy 'bonds' to the steel via a chemical reaction

It would be wise to take all 4 wheels off, clean the bore and hub and apply a slight smear of 'copper slip' to ensure if you do get a roadside puncture, you can replace it with the spare


Dave, be very wary of doing this on your wheels. The wheel - hub interface is held together with the bolts, but the torque transfer is by means of the friction at the interface. If you lubricate the interface, you reduce the friction and so reduce the capacity of the joint to transfer the torque. If friction is reduced too much, the force will be taken in shear and bending by the wheel bolts and they are not designed to do this. The mating faces of the hub and wheel should be clean and free of lubricant. If you want to prevent corrosion, you should fit the wheel dry and then apply some protective product as best you can to the exposed surfaces.
gmerry   
Mon Mar 01 2010, 11:42pm
Joined: Dec 11 2009
Member No: #21
Location: Scotland
 Owen, sorry to disagree.... even with lubricant, primarily there to reduce the corrosion, the surfaces between wheel and hub are so rough that there will be massive capability to transmit torque. In any case, we are talking about a tensioned bolt not one that is marginally taking out any slack. The fasteners must in any case handle the wheel lateral loads not just the torque so the mechanical joint most definitely does not rely on friction to function. As Dave originally suggested, I would strongly recommend removing your wheels as part of annual maintenance and adding some lubricant beween the alloy wheels and the steel hubs. Otherwise you could be in for an unpleasant roadside flat tyre problem.

Owen, sorry I don't know your background but design of preloaded joints is an area which many years ago I was much involved in and managed to fix some large problems created by previous ignorance and mis-understanding.
Owen Snell   
Tue Mar 02 2010, 10:23am
Joined: Feb 18 2010
Member No: #58
gmerry wrote ...

Owen, sorry to disagree.... even with lubricant, primarily there to reduce the corrosion, the surfaces between wheel and hub are so rough that there will be massive capability to transmit torque. In any case, we are talking about a tensioned bolt not one that is marginally taking out any slack. The fasteners must in any case handle the wheel lateral loads not just the torque so the mechanical joint most definitely does not rely on friction to function. As Dave originally suggested, I would strongly recommend removing your wheels as part of annual maintenance and adding some lubricant beween the alloy wheels and the steel hubs. Otherwise you could be in for an unpleasant roadside flat tyre problem.

Owen, sorry I don't know your background but design of preloaded joints is an area which many years ago I was much involved in and managed to fix some large problems created by previous ignorance and mis-understanding.


I have worked with a lot of friction grip applications on lifting equipment and understand how they work fully, I run an engineering company and have a degree in Mechanical Engineering. If Citroen had intended the joint to be lubricated, surely they would have done so?

I have the manual for my BMW motorbike here to hand, which has a single sided swing arm, so the wheel mounting is the same as on a car. Quote: "Check that the wheel centring spigot and the contact faces on the wheel hub are free from grease"

This is quite specific and people still come on the BMW forum and say that they don't see how a bit of grease can do any harm!
cruiserphil   
Tue Apr 19 2011, 02:34pm

Joined: Jan 24 2010
Member No: #38
Location: Celbridge
 Lads, if it's any use, I went to remove the wheels to check brake pad wear. When I took out the "socket" there was only one pin left in it. Reckon it was from tyre fitting at a local supplier about a year ago, but I hadn't checked it afterwards. I bought replacement standard bolts at a local friendly Citroen garage. They strongly advised against replacing the security socket. They changed the bolts for me as they had a can full of security sockets for such an evntuality and found a match.
michaelb   
Tue Apr 19 2011, 06:13pm
Joined: Nov 17 2009
Member No: #14
Location: London
gmerry wrote ...
This of course needs to be weighed up against the insurance issues if wheels were indeed stolen (Is there a large 2nd hand market for C6 alloys?).




I had that conversation with Colliers Citroën when they put my winter tyres on and I suggested with the wheel bolts already hidden behind the hub cap that would be sufficient security if only ordinary bolts were used. The mechanic gave me a wry smile and told me he wouldn't risk it with his car.
cruiserphil   
Thu Apr 21 2011, 12:59pm

Joined: Jan 24 2010
Member No: #38
Location: Celbridge
 Thanks for reply Michael B. When I said "strongly advised against replacing the security socket" they reckoned that even if I bought a replacement it would let me down some day. So they enthusiasticaly recommended replacement with standard bolts. When I raised the possibility of theft their answer was "who's going to steal wheels from a Citroen C6!!" I intend to replace the security bolts with standard on the latest arrival as well!

Phil
gmerry   
Thu Apr 21 2011, 01:25pm
Joined: Dec 11 2009
Member No: #21
Location: Scotland
 Hopefully not another C6 owner. In any case, thay are so big and heavy, hardly easily manageable for an opportunistic thief.

Regards
G
bottletree   
Tue May 03 2011, 06:15pm
Joined: Apr 30 2011
Member No: #456
 Very interesting thread. I live on a council estate here in Sheffield and most of my cars have had very nice alloys on them. The first car with the alloys i lost the bloomin key and had to get the AA to hammer it off with a special tool kit. Since that episode i have never used them. More trouble than their worth. I'm sure theft of wheels has come down dramatically over the years.
Chevrons   
Tue May 22 2012, 03:25pm
Joined: Apr 10 2010
Member No: #85
Location: N. Staffs
 Wish I had read this thread before today.
Clipped a stone from a dry-stone wall last night and, as I have done on at least three occasions before, got a (slow) puncture. Decided to change the wheel this morning, but nearly crippled myself when I tried to use the wheel key and it came off the locking stud, sending me flying backwards. A close look at the stud and the head was damaged by careless use of the key, no doubt by ATS as they are the only ones who have removed and replaced wheels on my car. Called ATS mobile - they wouldn't come to it, don't have AA Home Start. Got it to ATS by stopping every 10min and pumping it up. They got it out as they have a pneumatic tool and could get good pressure on it to stop it from twisting out. A quick inspection found another in the same condition.
Conclusion: Now replaced the locking nuts with ordinary bolts.
Ped   
Tue May 22 2012, 04:19pm
Joined: Apr 06 2010
Member No: #82
Location: Maidenhead
 I plan on having mine replaced when I next get new boots. I assume a tire place will be able to supply and swap them?
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