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Ranger12
 
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  Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
I tried to get a look at the underside rear of the car in the garage today, as I suspect they have incorrectly fitted or adjusted the new adjustable camber-rods, but they wouldn't let me look, and even though I repeated three times I didn't need to see it up on a ramp, and that I just needed to peek at the rear camber rods, they ignored that and told me that I couldn't because the engine was being supported as part of the cambelt job. They said they would ring me when I could go and check it. Does anyone else have a clue as to how fitting these new adjustable camber rods has resulted in the rear wheels being moved over an inch forward? I'm sure there's an unadjustable rod that holds the wheel laterally in the centre, so can't see how this has happened. Regarding the pulling to left issue, I note that the front right jacking point is crushed flat, trapping some of the plastic trim, and I am wondering if this car was jacked from that point, with the suspension deactivated or low down, and that has in turn maybe bent the car along the right hand side in such a way to effect the unadjustable castor of the right hand front suspension? The right-hand castor is slightly more upright than the left hand side. If this is the case, what would the effect of having a slightly shorter wheelbase on the right-hand-side likely have on a vehicle? Would this, perhaps, cause the car to pull (lightly but persistently) to the left? |
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MGmike
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    Member No: #3151
Location: South Queensferry |
Those pictures look very wrong! The car has a longitudinal arm that controls the distance from the bottom of the hub to the body at the front of the wheel arch. The front a rear control arms should only control track and camber with the top arm providing the control of the top centre line. To be that far out there must be something serious going with all the bushes, mounting points/bolts or hubs. I think a trip to B.L Auto is called for to get someone knowledgeable to look at it (or bring it up here  ). |
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arconell3
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 Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar |
Hmmm, looking at the pictures, it really looks like somebody screwed up seriously... The rear suspension consists of an upper triangle, a lower longitudinal arm, a lower tracking adjustment rod (front side) and the (now adjustable) lower arm (rear side). Looking at the pictures on pages 140-143 here: - Click Here -, the only way a rear wheel can be moved forward is when the longitudinal arm is either not fitted correctly, bent out of shape or not fitted at all... Besides, there is no way anybody can get a proper alignment done so long as the ride height hasn't been properly adjusted. Which on your car it clearly hasn't. If there is a left-right height discrepancy which cannot be adjusted, also have a look at the anti-roll bar and its rods fixing it to the pivot. (apart of course from a faulty height sensor...). Which reminds me: also check that the height sensors are positioned correctly, the right one at the right place. They are colour coded, see page 147 of the above document. Good luck! Robert |
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Ranger12
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Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
Thank you for confirming my fears MGmike & arconell3, when I saw the photos I was sent by the garage, at first I thought it must be a fisheye camera effect, but the more I looked, the more it became clear something must be seriously wrong, and in my head that picture screams at me that all the related bushes must be being badly squashed to move that far. I have previous pictures of the underside of the car, and the longitudinal arms are both there, and look OK to me, so I am wondering if maybe I just caught the garage off-guard so to speak. By that I mean maybe they bent the longitudinal arms by accident, and have new parts on order and just didn't want to admit they'd made yet another mistake in the hope that I would never know. Well we'll see, I can think the worst, but maybe when they ring me to pick up the car and pay for the work, they'll have fixed it (without trying to pass the cost onto me), but I have a horrible, worrisome feeling that they might try to claim that's how the car came in, and then I'm going to need a solicitor. What also worries me is that the car was driven like that for around thirty broken-road miles, when they took it to other garages for work they couldn't do themselves. Here's hoping they have it in hand, and that I caught them at the wrong time. I think a trip to B.L.Autos may well be in order after lockdown (If I remember correctly, they also did conversions of 2.0L Turbo Xantia Activas to manual 3.0L V6 Activas). A couple of pics showing the left and right rear wheels from underneath (taken about two weeks ago) ...    |
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David Hallworth
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   Member No: #90
Location: Glasgow |
Ranger12 wrote ... I think a trip to B.L.Autos may well be in order after lockdown (If I remember correctly, they also did conversions of 2.0L Turbo Xantia Activas to manual 3.0L V6 Activas). They did indeed. Mine is one of the Activas they converted to a V6  |
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Ranger12
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Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
Thank you for confirming that, it's good to know that there's at least one garage that knows what it's talking about and trustworthy, and if they did a good job on your Activa conversion, then they are definitely the people I need to see. My Activa is still waiting for its conversion to V6, I have everything except the manual box. 3.0L V6 Engine (from an Exclusive) with torque convertor and autobox, steering rack, hydraulic pump, exhaust manifold and cat, and a few other bits. Must admit that I am also considering turning mine into an electric vehicle, whilst retaining original suspension and hydraulics equipment. Regarding my C6 though, just got a letter today from DVLA asking me for loads of photos and vehicle id's as some idiot decided they would register this car as a 5-Door Hatchback in the past, when it is clearly a 4-Door Saloon. I sent them the photos I posted here (plus extras), now they've asked me to fill in a form detailing all the parts I've used to convert the car to a 4-Door Saloon from a 5-door hatchback ... which of course I can't do because it has never been a 5-door Hatchback. So I am having a very bad experience with this car, basically ripped off by the seller in the first instance, but it drove smoothly and comfortably (apart from this minor annoyance of pulling left, and a weep on the front left suspension strut). Then since I put it into a garage for a service and diagnostics, the car instantly changed and now has gained 500 rpm extra needed to pull off (they changed the autobox oil but put in a different one than requested and quoted for), the engine noises became apparent where I had heard none before (I think they removed and disposed of the under tray which I am sure was there when I first picked up the car), they put the very oil the manual and service data says not to put into my engine, and insist this is ok (they say it is a low ash version that they use regularly without complaints), they sent my car for tracking without having checked and set the suspension height first (as requested by me and outlined in the service procedures), and the garage they sent it to for tracking has dodgy equipment and despite telling me they know how to work with C6's, clearly hadn't the foggiest and have actually managed to make the suspension feel worse without changing the pulling to left one iota. All subsequent trackings (now 6) again appear to have been done without observing ANY of the needed procedures, and each tracking session has resulted in invalidating the previous efforts by different garages. The last tracking session with the new adjustable camber-rods has resulted in the pictures I posted above, and clearly something is dangerously wrong now. The car feels totally different now from the day I picked it up, and is definitely not working as it should. What really galls me about all of this is that I have already now spent nearly £6000 (inc purchase price) to get this car perfect, but it is now in a far worse state than when I picked it up, with the Garage now claiming they can't do any more. I have personally witnessed mechanics claim they know this car, then proceed to jack it from its lowest position with standard trolley jacks (no protection), with the ignition off, and LDS lid tight when they replaced all the tyres, and even when I verbally tried to correct their faulty and dangerous procedures on my car, they still ignored what I was telling them. I wish I'd never gone near a single garage (first time I have ever entrusted a car of mine to a garage), but sadly where I am currently living prevents me from working on it myself, even though I actually have the skills (which are far better than any garage or mechanic I have currently dealt with) to do so. I am actually now afraid to drive my new car due to potentially lethal rear suspension set up, autobox running worse after service, worry of incorrect oil in the engine, the suspension behaving oddly over bumps and dips, an apparently incurable pull to the left, and now to top it off, my insurance may well be invalid because some idiot decided this was a 5-door hatchback. Does anyone know if jacking this vehicle with the suspension on low, from the front-right jacking point (in such a way as to crush the protruding flap back onto the surrounding plastic with the ignition off, is likely to cause the Front right wheel castor to be bent backwards (red on the tracking sheets), increasing the suspension height slightly on that corner, which in turn may be causing the vehicle to pull slightly left? I am thinking if this is the case, I may be able to straighten the sill and jacking point by strapping the jacking point (which has a hole in it) down to something deeply rooted in concrete, then carefully use the suspension itself to pull it all straight, by first setting the vehicle to normal height, then strapping to an immovable object, then using the ratchet to incrementally increase the tension on the strap whilst the car (running) then tries to readjust the suspension up. Sorry about the rantish nature of this post, if you can't already tell, my dream purchase is rapidly turning into a nightmare, and I'm now thinking that I will never get this car back in better condition, or even drivable condition, and I am going to be left £6000 out of pocket with nothing worthwhile to show for it. |
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Tjensen
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 Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
The bureaucratic hassle may originate from a standard (wrong) list categorizing C6 as a 5 door hatchback- I have seen it many times, but this is the first time I heard that it might cause trouble. From what you tell us, B L Auto might the solution to the tracking/adjusting problems. | ||
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Jas16
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 Member No: #2994
Location: West London |
Sorry to hear of your experience. I can vouch also for garages who do not know how to work on a C6. I can also back up the previous post for BL Autos. Who had to correct incorrect work completed by previous mechanics. If you do live closeby to them then go nowhere else. You can give them a heads up of the work, so oil changes are completed during your visit. I hope you are able to enjoy your C6 with the comfort and peace of mind that ownership should offer, sooner rather than later Appreciate the update and don't give in. |
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MGmike
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Member No: #3151
Location: South Queensferry |
Ranger12, Sorry to hear your tale of woe. It seems you've been badly let down by a number of garages! Whereabout in "Darkest England" are you as there might be someone on here that can recommend someone closer to you? Clearly you now have a number of issues to deal with and it sounds like a consultation with solicitor might be money well spent. It certainly sounds like a breach of contract has taken place if you set specific requirements that weren't complied with. I would say the most concerning is using the wrong gearbox oil as this will need a lot of changes to flush the system... That's a lot of expensive oil and for one wouldn't be driving it until it's done. What kind of engine oil was used? If its low SATS it should be okay but might need changing earlier if it's not fully synthetic. Then there's the suspension! I really can't see how they can get that soooo wrong! Best of luck getting this sorted. |
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Ranger12
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Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
Thank you for your supportive posts Tjensen, Jas16, & MGmike, I'm in, Gloucestershire. Unfortunately I don't have access to my receipts and documents, they are all in the car, so remembering the exact specs of the oils is escaping me at present (also they didn't put the exact oil specs on the receipts, not even the brand name). However, I did end up having a long discussion with the mechanic currently working on my car (who was a Citroen mechanic for 20 years he tells me), and he assured me that both oils are appropriate for my car, and that they use a low ash engine oil. The service advisor even read me an email from a previous C6 customer (he has a 2.2 HDI Auto) who said his gearbox was working even better on the autobox oil they used. A call to Citroen in Tewkesbury confirmed they would also use the oil rating for the C6 that the service manual says to avoid. The argument they used is that the specs are out of date as oils have progressed since 2007, which I don't have the necessary data on to argue with (namely I still don't know the name of either oils). I will have to check the receipts and ask them directly for the oil brand and specs they used so I can check out the finer details of the oils. I am wondering if when I go to pick up the car, and the rear wheels are still as they look in the posted photos, if I am within my legal rights to refuse to pay, and leave the car with them until they have fixed it? I think that if I pay, then drive the car away, that would be viewed in law as acceptance of the work they had done, leaving me no recourse in law, and may well be dangerous in that condition (it should not pass an MOT like that), or attract the attention of the police, and likely be doing premature, expensive damage to all the other over-stressed components. I was hoping to be able to post a solution to the pulling to left issue by now, and report that I was happily driving around in my serviced and fully repaired C6, with nice, new and clean, manufacturer recommended oils, and filters, but sadly this is turning into a real saga. I certainly hope there is a happy ending to all of this, one that doesn't leave me bankrupt with a C6 half-repaired that I only got to do around 200 miles in! Hmmm, I really am starting to feel how Gollum must have felt when those nasty Hobbitses stole his precious. How dare they despoil my preeeeccccccious, do these foolses not realize they should feel honoured, yessssss honoured to work on such beauty? such engineering wizardry? such creative artistry? Pearlses before pigses I say! Oh my Preciouses! bad garadges!! we say, evil mechniks !!! must get my precious back, yesss take her backs we willses .... |
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MGmike
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Member No: #3151
Location: South Queensferry |
One the other C6 Facebook members had good things to say about Citropro which is the other side of Bristol from you. Might be worth taking it down to them for an assessment. |
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Ranger12
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Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England |
Thank you, very helpful. I'll give both B.L Autos and Citropro a ring as soon as I have my C6 back, but that may be a while yet as I just don't know where this is heading, and I can't take it back in that condition, or even drive it, until they have rectified the rear geometry. Regarding the gearbox oil, I am worried, it has a mix of what I assume was the original OEM oil (4ltrs), with half-priced oil (3ltrs - I had specifically asked for the OEM oil, and was only told that they hadn't put OEM oil in when I picked the car up). The autobox has felt different since then, and at low town speeds in traffic appears to be uncertain what gear to use as it jumps between them at around 20-30mph. It seems I always have to drive in town at the one speed this box can't decide what to do due to traffic flow, and is almost constantly changing up/down. I think the oil they added has either thinned the oil or made it more viscous, but it has changed where/when it changes gear and now means it seems to slip more than it did previously when pulling off. They did previously offer to change the oils, but at this point they had reassured me it was ok, and they weren't very forthcoming over who was to pay. Now I am very unsure, and worried, and certain I shouldn't have to pay for their dishonesty or screw-ups, particularly as they assured me they are an honest garage with suitable C6 skills. |
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Tjensen
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Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
Engine oil:Yes there are new oils and new standards, the original is 5-30 ASEA C2, PSA B71 2290, the new standard 0-30 ASEA C2 PSA PSA B71 2312. Best is probably the old original standard. But in the short run, engine oil is not a problem. Gear oil: You need to know what they have used. For 2.7 engine it use the quite ordinary and not expensive 3309 standard. New 3.0 EURO 5 engines use the AW-1 oil. |
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Fraunie
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Member No: #3763
Location: Stockdorf |
I don't get tired to repeat myself: The original standard for the engine oil in the 2.7 Hdi is NOT a C2 oil, but a B3 - oil. See original chart from "Carnet de Poche" and the sticker in the engine bay. ACEA C2 is a newer standard to keep overall fuel consumption as low as possible, ignoring the disadvantages for the engine... I have used 5W40 and even 5W50 oil and the analysis of these oils shows good results. If you "must" use a modern oil use the ACEA C3 Standard.  
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Tjensen
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Member No: #954
Location: Bergen |
Your car is early. The first year(s) the C2 standard was not available. As soon as the new oils were in the market recommendations changed to 5-30 C2. No problem in the short run, but C2 (or C1) makes it less probable with EGR problems. The 2.7 engine should have the C2 , C3 have more "ash". Jaguar recommends C1 (even less "ash") for the same engine. And now the standard recommendation is 0-30 C2. But this is an area of many opinions..... Maybe the 5-50 is good for the engine interior, but not so good for EGR/turbo etc, I have seen that from another user in the forum. I use Mobil 1 5-30 C2 in my car, not comfortable with the new standard 0-30. | ||
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