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Pulling to one side.
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arconell3   
Sun Oct 25 2020, 10:38pm
Joined: Jun 28 2012
Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar
 Hi Ranger12,
As for the rear negative camber, that is caused by the fixed lower suspension arms and quite common for most C6'es. Since they're fixed arms, there is nothing you can do except getting a set of adjustable ones. I had mine replaced 5 years ago, on both our C6es, it makes for a better driving experience, tracking, cornering and straight line stability are noticeably improved. Of course they are not OEM parts, but they are well engineered by the bloke who makes and sells them: - Click Here -.
For a picture of them: - Click Here -

As for the out of spec right caster, yours is a 2007 C6 originally delivered with the old ball joints, generally needing replacement every 5-10K miles... I would recommend to check the ball joints and have both pivots and ball joints replaced by the new, post-2007 units. They should last a lifetime, well, almost.

Also check the rear lower suspension arm bushes. When they are aftermarket bushes, get new suspension arms. None of these aftermarket bushes fit properly, invariably causing geometry problems.

Regards, Robert
Website
Ranger12   
Mon Oct 26 2020, 01:37am
Joined: Sep 24 2020
Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England
 Thank you arconell3,

I have checked the links you provided and this seems like another useful explanation of the problems I am having, and the solutions proposed are very encouraging.

I will be ordering a pair of those rear adjustable camber rods as I would much prefer being able to adjust for camber.

Interestingly the link you provided also mentioned about 'cupping' or a weird grinding type of noise to do with the rear tyres which may sound like wheel bearings.

I hadn't mentioned this before, but that is what I am hearing/feeling after the tracking was done, and the rear stability changed, it feels less secure on the rear going around bends, but potholes in particular make it feel like the rear is stepping out a bit even at low speeds.

I have another set of questions related to getting the tyres done tomorrow, and I hope it is ok to ask it here as it's kind of related to my efforts to fix the pulling to left issue.

How important is it to loosen the LDS tank lid if the car is jacked by its jacking points and the wheels are left hanging?

I ask as I am worried that the place I am getting the tyres done (even though they claim to know how to work with C6's) hasn't done that when they replaced one rear tyre last week (NSR), and may do the same on Monday.

What damage could this do?, and should I loosen the lid myself when I get there, then re-tighten it after they have done the three other tyres? Is it safe to drive the car at low speed with the LDS tank lid loose?
arconell3   
Mon Oct 26 2020, 07:11am
Joined: Jun 28 2012
Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar
Ranger12 wrote ...

....
How important is it to loosen the LDS tank lid if the car is jacked by its jacking points and the wheels are left hanging?

I ask as I am worried that the place I am getting the tyres done (even though they claim to know how to work with C6's) hasn't done that when they replaced one rear tyre last week (NSR), and may do the same on Monday.

What damage could this do?, and should I loosen the lid myself when I get there, then re-tighten it after they have done the three other tyres? Is it safe to drive the car at low speed with the LDS tank lid loose?
....



VERY IMPORTANT! Not loosening the cap will, once the car comes down again and back on its wheels, press the LDS back into the tank with a vengeance. If the cap is closed, the resulting sudden rise in pressure will invariably rip the tank....

I always take off the cap (or sufficiently loosen it) myself and put it back on afterwards. Even at a Citroën garage, mind you!

Regards, Robert
Website
Ranger12   
Mon Oct 26 2020, 09:32am
Joined: Sep 24 2020
Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England
 Hi Robert,

thank you very much for answering that. I have just been out to the car and checked the LDS tank and it appears to be in one piece. I loosened the cap, and I heard a about a second-long sound of gas escaping under pressure (not sure if this is normal), then re-tightened once I'd ascertained there were no splits or leaks.

I'll certainly now make sure I do this even for Citroen Garages too.

Thank you very much to you and all for your invaluable advice, I know I need it, as I am finding out rather quickly, this car has quite a few differences to my old CX and Xantia, those I could work my way around blindfolded, the C6 is quite a different (loveable) creature.

Kind regards

Peter
Davet49   
Mon Oct 26 2020, 04:28pm
Joined: Oct 14 2018
Member No: #3695
Location: Winchester
 Pardon my ignorance, but where is the LDS tank?
Ranger12   
Mon Oct 26 2020, 05:59pm
Joined: Sep 24 2020
Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England
 Hi Davet49,

Facing the front of the car with the bonnet up, it is the squarish looking black plastic tank, in the front left of the engine bay. Mine has an oblong red and white Citroen warning sticker about the hydraulic system adhered to the top surface near the filler cap (also black plastic).
Ranger12   
Mon Oct 26 2020, 06:24pm
Joined: Sep 24 2020
Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England
 So all new tyres fitted, the garage dutifully ignored doing anything with the LDS cap (fortunately I loosened and re-tightened it myself this time), but absolutely no difference to the pulling to the left, literally nothing that two garages have done has made the slightest difference to this issue.

So that's now done, and it is time to focus on sorting out the negative camber on the rears, and the RHF wheel out-of-spec castor.

I will post the results within the next month as I still have cambelts, water pump, injector pump belt, auxiliary belt, missing front under-tray, brake disks and pads, NSR Door solenoid, 2 more autobox oil changes, and headlight washers to sort out, and I am getting a bit low on funds, so I'll have to start spacing out the repairs a bit, and focus on the most urgent first.

Thank you all for your responses and advice, I will update when it's fixed so that can serve to help others in the future.
Ranger12   
Thu Oct 29 2020, 05:51pm
Joined: Sep 24 2020
Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England
 Have emails been thrown in the history bin whilst I was asleep? I've sent 3 to the Business that makes the adjustable camber rods, but no response, an email to C6Owners.org about making a one-off and regular donations to this site, no response, Warners Citroen Garage in Tewkesbury, no response. All my other emails are getting through ... what gives?

There are some days where I could happily tear my hair out by the roots through frustration .... sadly I have no hair left to even do that with. I'm rapidly getting the impression that the only people who know how to work on and diagnose issues with C6's are C6 owners and enthusiasts, with most garage services being nothing more than fitters with no diagnostic skills whatsoever ... kind of like the massive decrease in critical thinking in society that's been getting worse as every day goes by.

Here on this website I have seen more specialist knowledge from responders than any Garage, Citroen or otherwise ever offers to their customers ... I am rapidly beginning to see why that is the case. More and more businesses conduct themselves like they hate their own products, and think the customer is an annoyance sat in between them and the money they want.
cit-rotti   
Fri Oct 30 2020, 01:57pm
Joined: Dec 03 2018
Member No: #3753
Location: Bayern
 Hello,
... that with the hair is really annoying.
Most errors with a PC (email) are not caused by the PC but by the user.
The workshop problem is less due to the fitters and foremen - the merchants determine the processes.
Looking for a small workshop where this system does not yet exist.
If the level of the LDS liquid is correct, the lid does not have to be screwed on tightly - screw it on slightly and then loosen 1/4 turn - then there are no more bursting containers - and nothing overflows.
Greetings Wolfgang
Ranger12   
Fri Oct 30 2020, 03:29pm
Joined: Sep 24 2020
Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England
 Hi Wolfgang,

I was just having 'one-of-those-days', thanks for the advice though, I'll be sure to follow it. I'm really learning quite quickly just how the systems on this car differ to what I was used to with my CX, BX, and Xantia, and the fact that unlike its predecessors, the C6 was made to be a bit more maker-dependant.

The LDS level should be correct after the garage replaced the front suspension struts, and an intermediate service should have covered that too, which I'm sure it did.

Regarding email and PC issues, I know what you're saying and it is true, the user is most often the issue, but not always, sometimes it's the tech in between, or some pesky virus like Covid proving that it too can affect the Internet, though indirectly. In this case my tech is good and working as it should (I have experience in these things).

Viruses - common to life and tech, both forms basically being nothing more than snippets of code, but both able to wreak havoc even though they are not really alive.

I also agree .... after some thought .... about the merchants determining the processes.

Regarding the pulling to the left, my car is going into the garage on Tuesday to specifically check the rear suspension components, and the ride height, which from my measurements (tyre top to Sill) are NSF = 7cm, NSR = 7.5cm, OSF = 8cm, OSR = 8cm, appear to be out of alignment, basically pitching the car towards the NSF, which also happens to be the direction the car pulls to.

Hopefully by Wednesday I will know what the issue was, and so be able to post the solution here.
arconell3   
Fri Oct 30 2020, 10:28pm
Joined: Jun 28 2012
Member No: #922
Location: Kalkar
Ranger12 wrote ...

Have emails been thrown in the history bin whilst I was asleep? I've sent 3 to the Business that makes the adjustable camber rods, but no response, an email to C6Owners.org about making a one-off and regular donations to this site, no response, Warners Citroen Garage in Tewkesbury, no response. All my other emails are getting through ... what gives?

There are some days where I could happily tear my hair out by the roots through frustration .... sadly I have no hair left to even do that with. I'm rapidly getting the impression that the only people who know how to work on and diagnose issues with C6's are C6 owners and enthusiasts, with most garage services being nothing more than fitters with no diagnostic skills whatsoever ... kind of like the massive decrease in critical thinking in society that's been getting worse as every day goes by.

Here on this website I have seen more specialist knowledge from responders than any Garage, Citroen or otherwise ever offers to their customers ... I am rapidly beginning to see why that is the case. More and more businesses conduct themselves like they hate their own products, and think the customer is an annoyance sat in between them and the money they want.


Hi Ranger12,

Sorry to hear that there is still no response from Jan, the bloke in Almere, NL, who makes the adjustable rods. I'll give him a call tomorrow. Meanwhile, maybe you can sent me a copy of your mail to him, just use the PM system on this board.

Cheers, Robert
Website
Tjensen   
Sun Nov 01 2020, 05:35pm
Joined: Jul 17 2012
Member No: #954
Location: Bergen
 I have seen the adjustable rods for rear side in the standard netbased part shops: look for the number MAPCO 49417
Ranger12   
Mon Nov 02 2020, 01:28am
Joined: Sep 24 2020
Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England
 Thanks Tjensen,

I checked out the part number, those are for the front of the rear axle, I need replacement adjustable rods for the fixed camber rod, which is at the rear of the rear axle on both left and right sides. This makes the rear wheels adjustable for Toe and Camber, not just toe.

Thanks for the part number, that may prove useful in the future.

I have heard from the man who makes the adjustable camber rods, he said he'll do me an invoice later today, and when payment has cleared, he'll send them, so hopefully I will have what I need soon.
Ranger12   
Fri Nov 20 2020, 07:12pm
Joined: Sep 24 2020
Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England
 Soooo, the saga continues ...

The adjustable rods came and were fitted by my local Garage. The height has been adjusted (my crude measurements showing the car was angling down towards the front left wheel turned out to be right), and both a Citroen garage and a suspension specialist found the tracking to be out (after 4 previous tracks).

The car is still pulling to the left, and the garage says they still don't know why after checking all the bushes including the rear subframe, which they say are ok, and that they can do no more.

I haven't had the car back yet, as I am also having the cambelt, water pump, belts, idle tensioner, and auxiliary belt replaced, but I asked the garage to send me some photos (DVLA have launched an investigation into this car due to the fact that it was previously registered as a 5-door Hatchback, and this is the 3rd time I have sent the documents back to re-register it as the 4-door Saloon it has always been) which they duly did, and something immediately struck my eye as being clearly wrong ....
Ranger12   
Fri Nov 20 2020, 07:25pm
Joined: Sep 24 2020
Member No: #4492
Location: Somewhere in the darkest recesses of England
 I'm pretty sure the rear wheels are not supposed to be near the front of their respective wheel arches ... in fact I'm certain of it, as much as I am certain that it wasn't like that when I handed the keys over.

The mechanic said he managed to get the car at the same height side to side, but that the rear to front heights he couldn't get even, he never mentioned that somehow the wheels have gone from being central (with too much negative camber) in their wheel arches, to looking like its somehow now got a shorter wheelbase!

If you can't see it, here's how it should look ...
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